Re: Kol Isha

[Ari Davidow <ari...>]

For what it's worth, so long as people can comment on the subject
without attacking the person who holds the views with which they
disagree, I'd like to support the fact that this pops up periodically
and is re-discussed. It may not change anyone's mind, but I think it
matters that we share perspectives, and continue to do so.

At some point, it is more of a halachic issue than one of Jewish music,
but I would not want to try to be the person trying to argue that it
has nothing to do with Jewish music!

I wish I had something profound to contribute to the discussion, but,
other than noting that I am on the side described variously by Wolf
and by Judith Cohen, I don't know that I have more to say beyond being
on the record as in disagreement with this. As a non-halakhic Jew, however,
this is easy to say, and easy to act on. And it's one reason why I am 
comfortable with Mordechai Kaplan's statement to the effect that the 
past must have a voice, not a veto--something I'd apply to all aspects
of Jewish music, as it happens.

ari

At 06:52 PM 2/18/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Although this issue may be irrelevant to some list members, it seems
>to be of concern to a good number of us.  I also hope that, as we
>consider the theoretical Halachik issues, we continue to focus on its
>implications for Jewish Music, the raison d'etre of our list.
>
>I do believe that an important component of Jewish Music is its
>connection to Judaism.  As others have observed, the principle of Kol
>Isha may have even played a role in the development of Jewish Music by
>women.  Therefore, understanding Judaism better often deepens our
>understanding of Jewish Music.
>
>In that spirit, and wanting Jewish Music to be shared by all, my
>question is to Jordan and others who agree with his positions:
>
>In your judgement,
>
>1. Has Halacha developed/changed?  If not, why not?
>
>2. If so, does Halacha continue to develop/change today?  If not, why
>not?
>
>3. If so, how would a reconsideration of the Halacha of Kol Isha
>occur?  Has it already occurred in Halachik Jewish movements (e.g.,
>Conservative and Orthodox), de jure or de facto?  What is the evidence
>(e.g., responsa, surveys, anecdotal, observation) for the answer?  Is
>it possible for Halacha to change in one place (e.g., the United
>States) and not in another (e.g., Israel)?
>
>4. If there are Jews committed to reconsideration/development/change
>of Halacha, such as the Halacha on Kol Isha, what could they do?
>
>I append my questions to Elliot's post because it is the most recent
>and he does suggest what Jews could do.  I regret, though, that his
>post and others say that it is up to women to agitate.  I do not
>believe that changes in the way Blacks are treated in this country and
>in South Africa resulted from the activisim of Blacks alone.
>
>Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Eliott Kahn <Elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Date: Sunday, February 18, 2001 4:08 PM
>Subject: Re: Kol Isha
>
>
>>I agree with the two following points of view:
>>
>>
>>The injunction against Kol Isha, IMO -- is a psychological implant
>whose
>>purpose is to
>>create self-loathing and feelings of inferiority in women, in order
>to
>>make them all the
>>more subservient to men in a patriarchal society. Any rationale is
>just
>>propaganda.
>>
>>Wolf Krakowski
>>
>>
>>
>>>I wasn't blaming liberal movements-
>>>I was just pointing out that talking about how 'Judaism has survived
>only
>>>because it has accepted change' doesn't mean that every change is
>good.
>>>Because it seems that if we change too much, too quickly, the center
>ceases
>>>to hold.
>>>
>>
>>Eliezer Kaplan
>>
>>
>>If Orthodox Judaism can find a way to reconcile these two viewpoints,
>I believe it would be to its benefit as well as all other
>denominations of Judaism and all levels of Jewish life. We all carry
>our own prejudices and emotional baggage--men and women, Jew and
>non-Jew alike. Shouting at people for their "antiquated views" never
>really works, but when people are denied their equal rights, they
>should get impatient and agitate for change. Surely there's a way that
>the Orthodox world will be able to accept not only women singing, but
>women making aliyot, reading torah,  and counting in a minyan. That
>time may not be now, but if women agitate, it's sure to come.
>>
>>That said, I would personally like to add that we in contemporary
>American society are always incensed because people and institutions
>won't accept us "just as we are." Every denomination of Judaism (or
>Christianity) cannot be all-inclusive to all people and all beliefs at
>all times. Please, just because someone won't accept your partner,
>your children's behavior, everyone of your beliefs or opinions, don't
>just storm off and say, "This religion is ridiculous. These people's
>beliefs are barbaric."
>>
>>My mother-in-law once wisely advised me of three things never to
>discuss at a party: sex, religion, or politics. Nobody ever changes
>their mind about deeply held beliefs anyway, and you'll just ruin a
>perfectly good opportunity to have fun. On the other hand, if the
>rabbi's wife would deny him conjugal relations until he resolved this
>"Kol Isha issue' .... Things might change fairly quickly!
>>
>>Eliott Kahn
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+
>>