Re: Fw: Kol Isha

[Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan...>]

Dear Bob,

Is there a way of posting the body of these references without copyright
infringement?  Some people have a more ready access to this information
and these publications than others.  I believe we would all benefit from
reading them, as a valid emotional uninformed opinion does not carry as
much weight as an informed one.  We each have our opinions based on the
culture we accept.  I doubt any of us would change our opinions after
reading the facts (I don't think I would), but at least we would have a
measure of understanding of the positions from which to argue our
opinions.  I know I don't like the concept of Kol Isha, based on my
personal feelings, but I don't really know why it exists, other than
from capsule reports by various listmembers.  Let's all get educated and
discuss this again.

Lorele

wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com wrote:

>  For those who would like to read more on the topic, here are some
> readings that have been recommended to the list before with
> annotations  (by whom?  I didn't note the source, so please
> re-identify yourself.)  I have not yet collected, let alone read
> them.  Perhaps one of our librarians can comment on their
> availability.  There is no entry for Kol Isha in the index to Rachel
> Biale's Women and Jewish Law.
>
> 1. Berman, Saul, "Kol Isha," article in the Rabbi Joseph H. Lookstein
> Memorial Volume—I will look into wider availability.
>
> A comprehensive treatment of the exegesis of this concept; Rabbi
> Berman, with characteristic subtlety and lucidity, explores the
> precise nature, context, and scope of what restrictions have been
> imposed, when, by whom, on what basis, and w/ what (often substantial)
> dissent and (quite liberal to quite restrictive) variability--as well
> as possible grounds for suspension of such restrictions altogether. R.
> Berman elucidates the thin basis in the Talmud, and in the history and
> origins of kol isha, for the restrictions that have developed (and,
> indeed, perhaps, for much or most of the accreted law of kol isha) and
> refers to the existence of substantial dissent re such stringencies as
> listening to recorded women's voices and mixed choirs.
>
> 2. Bleich, David, Contemporary Halachic Problems, volume II, pp.
> 147-52
>
> elucidates the substantial variability of Orthodox halachic opinions
> in re, e.g., mixed choirs, mixed singing of zemirot, and listening to
> women's voices on recordings or on the radio. (Thus, the otherwise
> genial radio guy who would only play tracks from Wolf's CD that had no
> women's voices--even on background harmony vocals--was catering to a
> very stringent, far from normative, view.) Bleich is, laughably, far
> from a liberal voice in such matters (unlike, e.g., R. Berman), but
> does expound halacha, in my experience, w/ unyielding integrity (as
> opposed to pandering to whatever right-wing political trend has swept
> the Orthodox world--e.g., in re capital punishment); that he
> demonstrates a wide range of proscriptions _proves_ that there is such
> a range.
>
> 3. Kimelman, Reuven: cassette recording of presentation at 1997
> International Conference on Feminism and Orthodoxy
>
> a typically (for this brilliant teacher) rigorous analysis of the
> exact and variable meanings and implications (e..g, for zemirot,
> Megilat Esther) of the sources for kol isha. Funny in parts, too.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>           -----Original Message-----
>           From: TROMBAEDU (at) aol(dot)com <TROMBAEDU (at) aol(dot)com>
>           To: World music from a Jewish slant
>           <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>           Date: Sunday, February 18, 2001 2:26 AM
>           Subject: Re: Fw: Kol Isha
>
>
>      In a message dated 2/17/01 11:43:32 PM Eastern Standard
>      Time,
>      nusach (at) hotmail(dot)com writes:
>
>
>
>     > ....it were really part of oral law dating back to
>     > the Talmud,,,,and....if oral law was part of Torah mi
>     > Sinai...then why
>     > would
>     > there be a wide variety of opinion on the subject?  IMHO
>     > kol isha issue is
>     > nothing more than another attempt to "keep women in their
>     > place."
>
>      There is a wide variety of opinion on just about every
>      Halacha discussed in
>      the Talmud. I don't see why Kol Isha is any different.
>      Halachic discussion is
>      precisely about the fact that Talmudic and Midrashic texts
>      are sometimes
>      enigmatic, or there are multiple versions of the same text,
>      with slightly
>      different emphasies of meaning. Some Halachic thinkers apply
>      Kol Isha in very
>      limited circumstances, and some in an appallingly wide range
>      of
>      circumstances. All are within the realm of Halachic
>      discussion. I do not want
>      to discuss the particulars on the list, because I would feel
>      compelled to
>      discuss my personal take on it, which Ifeel is best done in
>      private.
>      My whole objection to the way this thread is handled is that
>      many on this
>      list display a great deal of presumption when discussing
>      Halachic issues,
>      with which they have no more than a vague familiarity. Which
>      would not be so
>      bad, ifthey were not so casually dismissive of Halacha. For
>      someone to say
>      that the whole reason for Kol Isha is to keep women in their
>      place is a
>      disgusting display of ignorance of the process of halacha,
>      and a lack of
>      repect for the many people who spend their entire lives
>      studying Torah with a
>      great deal of integrity and intellectual honesty. That does
>      not mean that
>      there are no Rabbis who are misogynistic. Rabbi's are going
>      to be
>      misogynistic about as often as a lot of other people. But
>      that does not give
>      anyone the right to assume that the Halacha is a reflection
>      of that narrow
>      and specific point of view either.
>      I would be happy to discuss these issues with anyone, but
>      not on the list!
>
>      Jordan
>

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