Re: Fw: Kol Isha

[shirona <shirona...>]

Erev Tov, Mr. Hirsch

Let me see if I get your point: 

You seem to be offended at my dismissal of your "deeply held religious beliefs" 
- because they are "deeply held religious beliefs", and as such - need to be 
treated with an unquestioning acceptance. That pretty much ends the possibility 
of having any kind of meaningful discussion!  Being self-referential is like a 
dog chasing it's own tail.  You get nowhere.( and look pretty silly, too... )   

Deeply held religious beliefs don't impress me at all.  On the contrary - they 
are the root cause of the most violent, barbaric and cruel acts between men. 
It's precisely those kind of people who DO NOT QUESTION - that are capable of 
the worst atrocities. Examples?  History is full of them -   The Spanish 
Inquisition, the (current) Taliban regime, the Third Reich...to name a few.   
They all believed they were right!!!   How can you argue with those kinds of 
"beliefs"?  You can't - because they are all based on a closed - 
"self-referential" system, that preclude questioning...

Can we Jews afford to be that way too?  Haven't we been the victims of those 
kinds of "beliefs" enough times to know better? NO NO NO.  We MUST continue to 
question, to challenge, to update and upgrade our very own systems of beliefs - 
or else you should never say the "Aleinu".  It's about time the Orthodoxy 
relaxed a little bit and open the gates to some dialogue - at least with other 
Jews, and wake up to the fact that we ARE living in the 21st century.  Thank 
G-d.  Collective consciousness is on the rise, and pretty soon, us Jews, who 
are supposed to be "Or Lagoyim" will be left behind...

So I'm questioning here.  I'm questioning the origin of Kol Isha. I'm 
questioning the motives behind it.  Were they about power? The male ego?  Is 
this any different than the general oppression of women by men?  I want the 
source.  I want the truth.  The last thing I want is the "party line". I'm 
challenging the men out there to look deep inside yourselves - and if you have 
the courage - share with the rest of us a personal truth. Not a "religious 
belief".

Thanks,

Shirona
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* * *  Singer / Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music * * * 
          www.shirona.com
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: TROMBAEDU (at) aol(dot)com 
  To: World music from a Jewish slant 
  Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 5:30 PM
  Subject: Re: Fw: Kol Isha


  In a message dated 2/17/01 1:30:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  shirona (at) bellatlantic(dot)net writes: 



    Reflections on a controversial issue that effects many who are involved in 
    Jewish Music. 




  Shirona, 
  Quite frankly, there is nothing about your letter that suggests any 
  reflection. 
  Kol Isha is a complex Halachic topic, and as it dates back at least to the 
  time of the Talmud, it deserves serious consideration, not automatic 
  dismissal based on our 21st century attitudes towards rights and 
  entitlements. Whether it fits into our current mores or not, the prohibitions 
  regarding Kol Isha are the product of the Halacha system. If a person chooses 
  not to observe halacha, he or she is certainly entitled, but for those of us 
  who do observe Halacha, a hasty rejection of the validity of a Halachic 
  principle is no less offensive than the principle itself is to you. People 
  who believe Torah and Halacha are inherently holy do not automatically assume 
  that current ethical and moral principles are preeminent to the point of 
  rejection of our tradition. For those who are less engaged with Western 
  culture, that may take the form of outright rejection of current opinions on 
  the matter, and thus, not even call into question the centrality of Kol Isha 
  to an understanding of the place of women. While that may be odd or ludicrous 
  to you, it is part of these people's deeply held religious beliefs. These are 
  not unintelligent, spiteful, or misogynistic people. They just judge 
  differently how to treat people with respect and sensitivity. 
  For those of us who observe Halacha, but are engaged with the Western world, 
  these questions do carry with them more complex and nuanced understandings. 
  I cannot discuss this with you more onlist without discussing my personal 
  practice, which at this time I prefer not to do, but feel free to contact me 
  offlist and I will be glad to discuss this issue as fully as I can. 
  As far as the idea of Kol Isha Ervah goes, I will just add two points. One is 
  that even within the Halachic community, there is a wide variety of opinion 
  on the subject. 
  Two, perhaps instead of looking for reasons to be insulted by the Orthodox, 
  perhaps one might consider that in their own way, they are concerned with the 
  problem of the objectification of women, as much as the most ardent feminist 
  is. 

  Jordan Hirsch