Re: kol isha in action

[Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel...>]

I apologize if you found it condescending- it was meant to be funny.

----- Original Message -----
From: "avi finegold" <afinegold (at) yahoo(dot)com>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: kol isha in action


>
> --- Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel (at) attbi(dot)com> wrote:
> > IMO in the isolated yeshivish communities of Europe
> > the prohibition may have had lots of relevance- God
> > knows what might happen to the poor yeshiva bochrim
> > should they get turned on. But in modern society IMO
> > the prohibition loses it's relevance. Can't walk out
> > the door without being bombarded by suggestivity.
> >
>
> im sorry but that is so condescending that i dont even
> know what to say.
>
> and are you implying that if i have a hard time
> walking down a supermarket aisle without being
> bombarded with pork rinds that i should just throw in
> the towel? judaism isnt meant to be EASY!
>
>
>
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Sylvie Braitman
> >   To: World music from a Jewish slant
> >   Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:31 PM
> >   Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> >
> >
> >   Voice is a sensual thing. It's organic to the body
> > and as such "speaks" about the body. This is why we
> > feel so moved and deeply touched (we love it, we
> > hate it), because of its organic nature.
> >   It does not matter whether it's a male or female
> > voice, there is always something very physical about
> > a voice.
> >   Now, in a patriarchal system, a woman's voice is
> > danger, because right beneath her voice is her body
> > and her sexuality. And the poor men should not be
> > exposed to that!
> >   We women can listen to a man's voice and have all
> > sort of intimate feelings about it....we won't
> > complain. Men who are already overwhelmed by their
> > sexuality and don't always deal very well with that,
> > don't want more stimulation.
> >   In brief, a woman's voice is TOO beautiful to
> > take.
> >   And feminine beauty, in this specific orthodox
> > world, belongs to the private realm.
> >
> >   Sylvie (a singer!)
> >     ----- Original Message -----
> >     From: Lori Cahan-Simon
> >     To: World music from a Jewish slant
> >     Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 3:30 PM
> >     Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> >
> >
> >     I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> > example.  If you go to an event with kosher food,
> > everyone can still eat it.  Kashrut is spelled out
> > in the Torah.  Kol Isha was created by a human.
> > Kashrut has made sense for many reasons in many
> > times in history.  Kol Isha does not make sense.  I
> > understand that many people abide by it.  Shall I
> > say that people of African descent and women were
> > not allowed to vote in this country by law, and that
> > people abided by it and so we should respect that
> > and not try to change it?  It was wrong.  Again, I
> > challenge someone to tell me how my woman's voice
> > offends, aside from stating that it is Halacha.
> >     Lorele
> >
> >     avi finegold wrote:
> >
> > --- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
> >   Hi,
> >
> > It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
> > offensive and
> > un-necessary),
> >
> >
> > youre right about the law part but what makes you
> > think you have the right to pass judgement for
> > orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and
> > unnecesariness
> >
> > that may be the case for you but plenty of people
> > dont
> > find it to be the case.
> > as contentious an issue as it may be, many people
> > still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> > whether
> > or not you approve of it. for most people this
> > doesnt
> > interfere with their everyday life and they dont
> > shove
> > it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to events
> > where this might pose a problem for them. now you
> > have
> > to admit that when someone is organizing an event
> > they
> > have to take into consideration that they have to
> > accomodate any people that they are inviting to the
> > event. im not talking about people they might sell
> > tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
> > specifically said that they would like to see there
> > as
> > a guest of honour or something else along those
> > lines.
> > why cant you see it as a case of some people eat
> > kosher and therefore when those people go to events
> > people provide appropriate food solutions for them.
> > in
> > this case some people cannot allow themselves
> > halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore a
> > concession must be made to ensure that no one will
> > feel uncomfortable.
> >
> > im not saying that i think its a wonderful or
> > terrible
> > halacha im just saying that some people (regardless
> > of
> > their personal viewpoint about the halacha as well),
> > abide by it and its not right to state that they are
> > in the wrong just for being orthodox the way they
> > believe orthodoxy is meant to be.
> >
> >
> > avi
> >
> >
> >
> > so you need to give it a little more
> >   respect than that.
> > The best way to handle a situation like this is to
> > educate yourself and others.
> >
> > The fact is that there are strong halachik (Jewish
> > Legal) arguments
> > against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a woman's
> > voice is not a problem,
> > understanding what these are and being able to
> > present them when necessary
> > would be a more constructive approach then being
> > dismissive.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
> >
> >     Love,
> >
> > Rosa Parks
> >
> >         Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
> >       community needs to have it in
> >     their face and take it upon themselves to
> > realize
> >       that in our times living
> >     in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
> >       precedent for changing the
> >     custom. And why do I feel so much like that old
> >       Steve Martin character on
> >     Saturday Night Live saying it?
> >
> >                             EK
> >
> > www.zelwel.com
> >
> >
> >
> >        - Dan Jacobs
> >  - 07956 246 659
> >
> > ---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > ---------------------+
> >