Re: kol isha in action

[Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel...>]

Rabbi's tend to be more lenient in cases of d'rabbanan- for example, safek
d'rabbana l'kula (in the case of a doubt regarding a rabbinic prohibition,
the ruling goes towards leniency).
But this isn't the place for that discussion.


----- Original Message -----
From: "avi finegold" <afinegold (at) yahoo(dot)com>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: kol isha in action


>
> --- Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel (at) attbi(dot)com> wrote:
> > > according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a
> > human
> > >
> >
> > Disagree- there is a definite distinction in the
> > Orthodox tradition between
> > d'rabbanan (from the rabbi's) and d'oraitha (from
> > the written or oral
> > traditions).
> >
> >
>
>
> yes but the fact that something is a derabbanan doenst
> mean it is less important and more open to
> interpretation. he rabbis prohibited the eating of
> fowl and milk because it was something that could be
> confused with meat, but we cant say that we now have a
> better ability to distinguish between the two and so
> this should be abolished.
>
>
> avi
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "avi finegold" <afinegold (at) yahoo(dot)com>
> > To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
> > <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org>
> > wrote:
> > > > I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> > > > example.  If you go to an
> > > > event with kosher food, everyone can still eat
> > it.
> > > > Kashrut is spelled
> > > > out in the Torah.
> > >
> > > all it says int he torah is that you should not
> > cook a
> > > kid in its mothers milk.
> > >  Kol Isha was created by a human.
> > >
> > > according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a
> > human
> > >
> > >
> > > > Kashrut has made
> > > > sense for many reasons in many times in history.
> > >
> > > WHOA! im a rabbinical student and im still
> > grappling
> > > with the notion of kosher being a logical thing to
> > > follow. i even have a hard time understanding why
> > i
> > > should not eat fish and meat on the same plate
> > (which
> > > IS a rabbinically decreed custom). that doesnt
> > mean i
> > > dont do it. a central tenetof orthodox philosophy
> > > stress the notion that regardless of there being a
> > > reason for doing it or not, it should still be
> > > followed. of course this isnt to say that we
> > shouldnt
> > > try and understand why a law exists or not.
> > > > Kol Isha does not make
> > > > sense.
> > >
> > > maybe according to you, but many many orthodox
> > people
> > > would argue with you.
> > >
> > >  I understand that many people abide by it.
> > > > Shall I say that
> > > > people of African descent and women were not
> > allowed
> > > > to vote in this
> > > > country by law, and that people abided by it and
> > so
> > > > we should respect
> > > > that and not try to change it?
> > >
> > >
> > > thse were laws which were made by humans, which
> > make
> > > them ultimately fallible and open to change,
> > unlike
> > > orthodox halacha which is divinely ordained and
> > not
> > > open to revision.
> > >
> > >
> > >  It was wrong.
> > > > Again, I challenge
> > > > someone to tell me how my woman's voice offends,
> > > > aside from stating that
> > > > it is Halacha.
> > > > Lorele
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > without getting into it too much as this has gone
> > on
> > > long enough (though im sure itll come up in a
> > future
> > > email) orthdox halacha would say that the voice of
> > a
> > > woman is a turn-on to males and that therefore men
> > > should not be listening to it. (note that the
> > > prohibition isnt for women to sing its or men not
> > to
> > > hear which does not silece half the population as
> > one
> > > might argue...)
> > >
> > >
> > > avi
> > >
> > >
> > > > avi finegold wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >--- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>Hi,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that
> > is
> > > > >>offensive and
> > > > >>un-necessary),
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >youre right about the law part but what makes
> > you
> > > > >think you have the right to pass judgement for
> > > > >orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and
> > > > unnecesariness
> > > > >
> > > > >that may be the case for you but plenty of
> > people
> > > > dont
> > > > >find it to be the case.
> > > > >as contentious an issue as it may be, many
> > people
> > > > >still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> > > > whether
> > > > >or not you approve of it. for most people this
> > > > doesnt
> > > > >interfere with their everyday life and they
> > dont
> > > > shove
> > > > >it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to
> > > > events
> > > > >where this might pose a problem for them. now
> > you
> > > > have
> > > > >to admit that when someone is organizing an
> > event
> > > > they
> > > > >have to take into consideration that they have
> > to
> > > > >accomodate any people that they are inviting to
> > the
> > > > >event. im not talking about people they might
> > sell
> > > > >tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
> > > > >specifically said that they would like to see
> > there
> > > > as
> > > > >a guest of honour or something else along those
> > > > lines.
> > > > >why cant you see it as a case of some people
> > eat
> > > > >kosher and therefore when those people go to
> > events
> > > > >people provide appropriate food solutions for
> > them.
> > > > in
> > > > >this case some people cannot allow themselves
> > > > >halachically to hear a woman singing and
> > therefore
> > > > a
> > > > >concession must be made to ensure that no one
> > will
> > > > >feel uncomfortable.
> > > > >
> > > > >im not saying that i think its a wonderful or
> > > > terrible
> > > > >halacha im just saying that some people
> > (regardless
> > > > of
> > > > >their personal viewpoint about the halacha as
> > > > well),
> > > > >abide by it and its not right to state that
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > >in the wrong just for being orthodox the way
> > they
> > > > >believe orthodoxy is meant to be.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >avi
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >so you need to give it a little more
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>respect than that.
> > > > >>The best way to handle a situation like this
> > is to
> > > > >>educate yourself and others.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>The fact is that there are strong halachik
> > (Jewish
> > > > >>Legal) arguments
> > > > >>against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a
> > woman's
> > > > >>voice is not a problem,
> > > > >>understanding what these are and being able to
> > > > >>present them when necessary
> > > > >>would be a more constructive approach then
> > being
> > > > >>dismissive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Cheers,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Dan
> > > > >>
> > > > >>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>Love,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>Rosa Parks
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>community needs to have it in
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>their face and take it upon themselves to
> > realize
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>that in our times living
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>precedent for changing the
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>custom. And why do I feel so much like that
> > old
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>Steve Martin character on
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Saturday Night Live saying it?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>                            EK
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>www.zelwel.com
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> - Dan Jacobs
> > > > >> - 07956 246 659
> > > > >>
> > > > >>----------------------
> > jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > > > >>---------------------+
> > > > >>