Re: kol isha in action

[avi finegold <afinegold...>]

--- Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel (at) attbi(dot)com> wrote:
> IMO in the isolated yeshivish communities of Europe
> the prohibition may have had lots of relevance- God
> knows what might happen to the poor yeshiva bochrim
> should they get turned on. But in modern society IMO
> the prohibition loses it's relevance. Can't walk out
> the door without being bombarded by suggestivity.
>

im sorry but that is so condescending that i dont even
know what to say. 

and are you implying that if i have a hard time
walking down a supermarket aisle without being
bombarded with pork rinds that i should just throw in
the towel? judaism isnt meant to be EASY!




   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Sylvie Braitman 
>   To: World music from a Jewish slant 
>   Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:31 PM
>   Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> 
> 
>   Voice is a sensual thing. It's organic to the body
> and as such "speaks" about the body. This is why we
> feel so moved and deeply touched (we love it, we
> hate it), because of its organic nature.
>   It does not matter whether it's a male or female
> voice, there is always something very physical about
> a voice.
>   Now, in a patriarchal system, a woman's voice is
> danger, because right beneath her voice is her body
> and her sexuality. And the poor men should not be
> exposed to that!
>   We women can listen to a man's voice and have all
> sort of intimate feelings about it....we won't
> complain. Men who are already overwhelmed by their
> sexuality and don't always deal very well with that,
> don't want more stimulation.
>   In brief, a woman's voice is TOO beautiful to
> take.
>   And feminine beauty, in this specific orthodox
> world, belongs to the private realm.
> 
>   Sylvie (a singer!)
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>     From: Lori Cahan-Simon 
>     To: World music from a Jewish slant 
>     Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 3:30 PM
>     Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> 
> 
>     I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> example.  If you go to an event with kosher food,
> everyone can still eat it.  Kashrut is spelled out
> in the Torah.  Kol Isha was created by a human. 
> Kashrut has made sense for many reasons in many
> times in history.  Kol Isha does not make sense.  I
> understand that many people abide by it.  Shall I
> say that people of African descent and women were
> not allowed to vote in this country by law, and that
> people abided by it and so we should respect that
> and not try to change it?  It was wrong.  Again, I
> challenge someone to tell me how my woman's voice
> offends, aside from stating that it is Halacha.
>     Lorele
> 
>     avi finegold wrote:
> 
> --- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
>   Hi,
> 
> It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
> offensive and
> un-necessary), 
>     
> 
> youre right about the law part but what makes you
> think you have the right to pass judgement for
> orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and
> unnecesariness
> 
> that may be the case for you but plenty of people
> dont
> find it to be the case. 
> as contentious an issue as it may be, many people
> still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> whether
> or not you approve of it. for most people this
> doesnt
> interfere with their everyday life and they dont
> shove
> it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to events
> where this might pose a problem for them. now you
> have
> to admit that when someone is organizing an event
> they
> have to take into consideration that they have to
> accomodate any people that they are inviting to the
> event. im not talking about people they might sell
> tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
> specifically said that they would like to see there
> as
> a guest of honour or something else along those
> lines.
> why cant you see it as a case of some people eat
> kosher and therefore when those people go to events
> people provide appropriate food solutions for them.
> in
> this case some people cannot allow themselves
> halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore a
> concession must be made to ensure that no one will
> feel uncomfortable.
> 
> im not saying that i think its a wonderful or
> terrible
> halacha im just saying that some people (regardless
> of
> their personal viewpoint about the halacha as well),
> abide by it and its not right to state that they are
> in the wrong just for being orthodox the way they
> believe orthodoxy is meant to be. 
> 
> 
> avi
> 
> 
> 
> so you need to give it a little more
>   respect than that.
> The best way to handle a situation like this is to
> educate yourself and others.
> 
> The fact is that there are strong halachik (Jewish
> Legal) arguments
> against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a woman's
> voice is not a problem,
> understanding what these are and being able to
> present them when necessary
> would be a more constructive approach then being
> dismissive.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
> 
>     Love,
> 
> Rosa Parks
> 
>         Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
>       community needs to have it in
>     their face and take it upon themselves to
> realize
>       that in our times living
>     in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
>       precedent for changing the
>     custom. And why do I feel so much like that old
>       Steve Martin character on
>     Saturday Night Live saying it?
> 
>                             EK
> 
> www.zelwel.com
> 
> 
> 
>        - Dan Jacobs
>  - 07956 246 659
> 
> ---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> ---------------------+
>