Re: kol isha in action

[avi finegold <afinegold...>]

--- Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org> wrote:
> Dan, I appreciate your attempt at lightening up the
> situation, but the 
> fact is, that is what it comes down to.  I could go
> into why kashrut 
> made sense at the time it was developed, but I'm
> really too tired since 
> I get up at 5:30 to go to work every day, and it's
> really a book-length 
> subject, as is Kol Isha.  At least the basis for
> kashrut is mentioned in 
> the torah, but is anything related to K.I.?  I'm
> still waiting for 
> someone to give me a good reason to put down half
> the Jewish population. 
>  I understand that laws are laws, but there should
> be a good reason for 
> having one and having created one in the first
> place.  One can say they 
> come from the divine, but this one surely sounds
> like an excuse to 
> propagate male control to me.
> 


with that kind of attitude i dont think youll ever
find a satisfying reason for why orthodox people do
certain things. and why would you say that its putting
down half the population. i have yet to meet and
commited orthodox woman who feels constrained by
modesty issues, of which kol isha is one of. I dont
think you need to get it you just have accept that
orthodox people, the only people for whom this is an
issue accept it and make it part of their lives.....





> I'm not happy about my ire, not happy about
> expressing it to this 
> extent, as I'm the sort of person who usually is the
> peacemaker and 
> tries to find the common ground, but this just
> rankles my sense of 
> fairness.  And, not because it happened to me.  Ask
> those who were 
> around for previous rounds of discussions.
> 
> Well, a good night to you all.
> 
> Lorele
>   
> 
> Dan Jacobs wrote:
> 
> >Lori,
> >
> >I agree with your sentiment here, however Kashrut
> does not make sense and
> >also most of the Kashrut laws are Rabbinical.
> >
> >The point of Kol Isha is not about offending a man,
> it is about 'arousal'
> >apparently as a man, I can't listen to you sing in
> case I get aroused and
> >as we know, Men have no self control!
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Dan
> >
> >On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Lori Cahan-Simon wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> example.  If you go to an
> >>event with kosher food, everyone can still eat it.
>  Kashrut is spelled
> >>out in the Torah.  Kol Isha was created by a
> human.  Kashrut has made
> >>sense for many reasons in many times in history. 
> Kol Isha does not make
> >>sense.  I understand that many people abide by it.
>  Shall I say that
> >>people of African descent and women were not
> allowed to vote in this
> >>country by law, and that people abided by it and
> so we should respect
> >>that and not try to change it?  It was wrong. 
> Again, I challenge
> >>someone to tell me how my woman's voice offends,
> aside from stating that
> >>it is Halacha.
> >>Lorele
> >>
> >>avi finegold wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>--- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>>It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
> >>>>offensive and
> >>>>un-necessary),
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>youre right about the law part but what makes you
> >>>think you have the right to pass judgement for
> >>>orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and
> unnecesariness
> >>>
> >>>that may be the case for you but plenty of people
> dont
> >>>find it to be the case.
> >>>as contentious an issue as it may be, many people
> >>>still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> whether
> >>>or not you approve of it. for most people this
> doesnt
> >>>interfere with their everyday life and they dont
> shove
> >>>it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to
> events
> >>>where this might pose a problem for them. now you
> have
> >>>to admit that when someone is organizing an event
> they
> >>>have to take into consideration that they have to
> >>>accomodate any people that they are inviting to
> the
> >>>event. im not talking about people they might
> sell
> >>>tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
> >>>specifically said that they would like to see
> there as
> >>>a guest of honour or something else along those
> lines.
> >>>why cant you see it as a case of some people eat
> >>>kosher and therefore when those people go to
> events
> >>>people provide appropriate food solutions for
> them. in
> >>>this case some people cannot allow themselves
> >>>halachically to hear a woman singing and
> therefore a
> >>>concession must be made to ensure that no one
> will
> >>>feel uncomfortable.
> >>>
> >>>im not saying that i think its a wonderful or
> terrible
> >>>halacha im just saying that some people
> (regardless of
> >>>their personal viewpoint about the halacha as
> well),
> >>>abide by it and its not right to state that they
> are
> >>>in the wrong just for being orthodox the way they
> >>>believe orthodoxy is meant to be.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>avi
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>so you need to give it a little more
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>respect than that.
> >>>>The best way to handle a situation like this is
> to
> >>>>educate yourself and others.
> >>>>
> >>>>The fact is that there are strong halachik
> (Jewish
> >>>>Legal) arguments
> >>>>against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a
> woman's
> >>>>voice is not a problem,
> >>>>understanding what these are and being able to
> >>>>present them when necessary
> >>>>would be a more constructive approach then being
> >>>>dismissive.
> >>>>
> >>>>Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>>Dan
> >>>>
> >>>>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>>Love,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Rosa Parks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>            
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>community needs to have it in
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>their face and take it upon themselves to
> realize
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>that in our times living
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>precedent for changing the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>custom. And why do I feel so much like that old
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>Steve Martin character on
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>Saturday Night Live saying it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>                           EK
> >>>>>
> >>>>>www.zelwel.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>- Dan Jacobs
> >>>>- 07956 246 659
> >>>>
> >>>>---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >>>>---------------------+
> >>>>