Re: kol isha in action

[Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel...>]

IMO in the isolated yeshivish communities of Europe the prohibition may have 
had lots of relevance- God knows what might happen to the poor yeshiva bochrim 
should they get turned on. But in modern society IMO the prohibition loses it's 
relevance. Can't walk out the door without being bombarded by suggestivity.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sylvie Braitman 
  To: World music from a Jewish slant 
  Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:31 PM
  Subject: Re: kol isha in action


  Voice is a sensual thing. It's organic to the body and as such "speaks" about 
the body. This is why we feel so moved and deeply touched (we love it, we hate 
it), because of its organic nature.
  It does not matter whether it's a male or female voice, there is always 
something very physical about a voice.
  Now, in a patriarchal system, a woman's voice is danger, because right 
beneath her voice is her body and her sexuality. And the poor men should not be 
exposed to that!
  We women can listen to a man's voice and have all sort of intimate feelings 
about it....we won't complain. Men who are already overwhelmed by their 
sexuality and don't always deal very well with that, don't want more 
stimulation.
  In brief, a woman's voice is TOO beautiful to take.
  And feminine beauty, in this specific orthodox world, belongs to the private 
realm.

  Sylvie (a singer!)
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Lori Cahan-Simon 
    To: World music from a Jewish slant 
    Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 3:30 PM
    Subject: Re: kol isha in action


    I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel example.  If you go to an 
event with kosher food, everyone can still eat it.  Kashrut is spelled out in 
the Torah.  Kol Isha was created by a human.  Kashrut has made sense for many 
reasons in many times in history.  Kol Isha does not make sense.  I understand 
that many people abide by it.  Shall I say that people of African descent and 
women were not allowed to vote in this country by law, and that people abided 
by it and so we should respect that and not try to change it?  It was wrong.  
Again, I challenge someone to tell me how my woman's voice offends, aside from 
stating that it is Halacha.
    Lorele

    avi finegold wrote:

--- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
  Hi,

It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
offensive and
un-necessary), 
    

youre right about the law part but what makes you
think you have the right to pass judgement for
orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and unnecesariness

that may be the case for you but plenty of people dont
find it to be the case. 
as contentious an issue as it may be, many people
still view it as an integral part of halacha, whether
or not you approve of it. for most people this doesnt
interfere with their everyday life and they dont shove
it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to events
where this might pose a problem for them. now you have
to admit that when someone is organizing an event they
have to take into consideration that they have to
accomodate any people that they are inviting to the
event. im not talking about people they might sell
tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
specifically said that they would like to see there as
a guest of honour or something else along those lines.
why cant you see it as a case of some people eat
kosher and therefore when those people go to events
people provide appropriate food solutions for them. in
this case some people cannot allow themselves
halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore a
concession must be made to ensure that no one will
feel uncomfortable.

im not saying that i think its a wonderful or terrible
halacha im just saying that some people (regardless of
their personal viewpoint about the halacha as well),
abide by it and its not right to state that they are
in the wrong just for being orthodox the way they
believe orthodoxy is meant to be. 


avi



so you need to give it a little more
  respect than that.
The best way to handle a situation like this is to
educate yourself and others.

The fact is that there are strong halachik (Jewish
Legal) arguments
against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a woman's
voice is not a problem,
understanding what these are and being able to
present them when necessary
would be a more constructive approach then being
dismissive.

Cheers,

Dan

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:

    Love,

Rosa Parks

        Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
      community needs to have it in
    their face and take it upon themselves to realize
      that in our times living
    in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
      precedent for changing the
    custom. And why do I feel so much like that old
      Steve Martin character on
    Saturday Night Live saying it?

                            EK

www.zelwel.com



       - Dan Jacobs
 - 07956 246 659

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