Re: kol isha in action

[Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan...>]

Dan, I appreciate your attempt at lightening up the situation, but the 
fact is, that is what it comes down to.  I could go into why kashrut 
made sense at the time it was developed, but I'm really too tired since 
I get up at 5:30 to go to work every day, and it's really a book-length 
subject, as is Kol Isha.  At least the basis for kashrut is mentioned in 
the torah, but is anything related to K.I.?  I'm still waiting for 
someone to give me a good reason to put down half the Jewish population. 
 I understand that laws are laws, but there should be a good reason for 
having one and having created one in the first place.  One can say they 
come from the divine, but this one surely sounds like an excuse to 
propagate male control to me.

I'm not happy about my ire, not happy about expressing it to this 
extent, as I'm the sort of person who usually is the peacemaker and 
tries to find the common ground, but this just rankles my sense of 
fairness.  And, not because it happened to me.  Ask those who were 
around for previous rounds of discussions.

Well, a good night to you all.

Lorele
  

Dan Jacobs wrote:

>Lori,
>
>I agree with your sentiment here, however Kashrut does not make sense and
>also most of the Kashrut laws are Rabbinical.
>
>The point of Kol Isha is not about offending a man, it is about 'arousal'
>apparently as a man, I can't listen to you sing in case I get aroused and
>as we know, Men have no self control!
>
>Regards,
>
>Dan
>
>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Lori Cahan-Simon wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel example.  If you go to an
>>event with kosher food, everyone can still eat it.  Kashrut is spelled
>>out in the Torah.  Kol Isha was created by a human.  Kashrut has made
>>sense for many reasons in many times in history.  Kol Isha does not make
>>sense.  I understand that many people abide by it.  Shall I say that
>>people of African descent and women were not allowed to vote in this
>>country by law, and that people abided by it and so we should respect
>>that and not try to change it?  It was wrong.  Again, I challenge
>>someone to tell me how my woman's voice offends, aside from stating that
>>it is Halacha.
>>Lorele
>>
>>avi finegold wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>--- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
>>>>offensive and
>>>>un-necessary),
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>youre right about the law part but what makes you
>>>think you have the right to pass judgement for
>>>orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and unnecesariness
>>>
>>>that may be the case for you but plenty of people dont
>>>find it to be the case.
>>>as contentious an issue as it may be, many people
>>>still view it as an integral part of halacha, whether
>>>or not you approve of it. for most people this doesnt
>>>interfere with their everyday life and they dont shove
>>>it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to events
>>>where this might pose a problem for them. now you have
>>>to admit that when someone is organizing an event they
>>>have to take into consideration that they have to
>>>accomodate any people that they are inviting to the
>>>event. im not talking about people they might sell
>>>tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
>>>specifically said that they would like to see there as
>>>a guest of honour or something else along those lines.
>>>why cant you see it as a case of some people eat
>>>kosher and therefore when those people go to events
>>>people provide appropriate food solutions for them. in
>>>this case some people cannot allow themselves
>>>halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore a
>>>concession must be made to ensure that no one will
>>>feel uncomfortable.
>>>
>>>im not saying that i think its a wonderful or terrible
>>>halacha im just saying that some people (regardless of
>>>their personal viewpoint about the halacha as well),
>>>abide by it and its not right to state that they are
>>>in the wrong just for being orthodox the way they
>>>believe orthodoxy is meant to be.
>>>
>>>
>>>avi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>so you need to give it a little more
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>respect than that.
>>>>The best way to handle a situation like this is to
>>>>educate yourself and others.
>>>>
>>>>The fact is that there are strong halachik (Jewish
>>>>Legal) arguments
>>>>against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a woman's
>>>>voice is not a problem,
>>>>understanding what these are and being able to
>>>>present them when necessary
>>>>would be a more constructive approach then being
>>>>dismissive.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>Dan
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>>Love,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rosa Parks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>community needs to have it in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>their face and take it upon themselves to realize
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>that in our times living
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>precedent for changing the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>custom. And why do I feel so much like that old
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Steve Martin character on
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Saturday Night Live saying it?
>>>>>
>>>>>                           EK
>>>>>
>>>>>www.zelwel.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>- Dan Jacobs
>>>>- 07956 246 659
>>>>
>>>>---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>>>>---------------------+
>>>>