Re: kol isha in action

[avi finegold <afinegold...>]

--- Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel (at) attbi(dot)com> wrote:
> > according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a
> human
> >
> 
> Disagree- there is a definite distinction in the
> Orthodox tradition between
> d'rabbanan (from the rabbi's) and d'oraitha (from
> the written or oral
> traditions).
> 
> 


yes but the fact that something is a derabbanan doenst
mean it is less important and more open to
interpretation. he rabbis prohibited the eating of
fowl and milk because it was something that could be
confused with meat, but we cant say that we now have a
better ability to distinguish between the two and so
this should be abolished.


avi


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "avi finegold" <afinegold (at) yahoo(dot)com>
> To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
> <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: kol isha in action
> 
> 
> >
> > --- Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org>
> wrote:
> > > I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> > > example.  If you go to an
> > > event with kosher food, everyone can still eat
> it.
> > > Kashrut is spelled
> > > out in the Torah.
> >
> > all it says int he torah is that you should not
> cook a
> > kid in its mothers milk.
> >  Kol Isha was created by a human.
> >
> > according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a
> human
> >
> >
> > > Kashrut has made
> > > sense for many reasons in many times in history.
> >
> > WHOA! im a rabbinical student and im still
> grappling
> > with the notion of kosher being a logical thing to
> > follow. i even have a hard time understanding why
> i
> > should not eat fish and meat on the same plate
> (which
> > IS a rabbinically decreed custom). that doesnt
> mean i
> > dont do it. a central tenetof orthodox philosophy
> > stress the notion that regardless of there being a
> > reason for doing it or not, it should still be
> > followed. of course this isnt to say that we
> shouldnt
> > try and understand why a law exists or not.
> > > Kol Isha does not make
> > > sense.
> >
> > maybe according to you, but many many orthodox
> people
> > would argue with you.
> >
> >  I understand that many people abide by it.
> > > Shall I say that
> > > people of African descent and women were not
> allowed
> > > to vote in this
> > > country by law, and that people abided by it and
> so
> > > we should respect
> > > that and not try to change it?
> >
> >
> > thse were laws which were made by humans, which
> make
> > them ultimately fallible and open to change,
> unlike
> > orthodox halacha which is divinely ordained and
> not
> > open to revision.
> >
> >
> >  It was wrong.
> > > Again, I challenge
> > > someone to tell me how my woman's voice offends,
> > > aside from stating that
> > > it is Halacha.
> > > Lorele
> > >
> >
> >
> > without getting into it too much as this has gone
> on
> > long enough (though im sure itll come up in a
> future
> > email) orthdox halacha would say that the voice of
> a
> > woman is a turn-on to males and that therefore men
> > should not be listening to it. (note that the
> > prohibition isnt for women to sing its or men not
> to
> > hear which does not silece half the population as
> one
> > might argue...)
> >
> >
> > avi
> >
> >
> > > avi finegold wrote:
> > >
> > > >--- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >>It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that
> is
> > > >>offensive and
> > > >>un-necessary),
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >youre right about the law part but what makes
> you
> > > >think you have the right to pass judgement for
> > > >orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and
> > > unnecesariness
> > > >
> > > >that may be the case for you but plenty of
> people
> > > dont
> > > >find it to be the case.
> > > >as contentious an issue as it may be, many
> people
> > > >still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> > > whether
> > > >or not you approve of it. for most people this
> > > doesnt
> > > >interfere with their everyday life and they
> dont
> > > shove
> > > >it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to
> > > events
> > > >where this might pose a problem for them. now
> you
> > > have
> > > >to admit that when someone is organizing an
> event
> > > they
> > > >have to take into consideration that they have
> to
> > > >accomodate any people that they are inviting to
> the
> > > >event. im not talking about people they might
> sell
> > > >tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
> > > >specifically said that they would like to see
> there
> > > as
> > > >a guest of honour or something else along those
> > > lines.
> > > >why cant you see it as a case of some people
> eat
> > > >kosher and therefore when those people go to
> events
> > > >people provide appropriate food solutions for
> them.
> > > in
> > > >this case some people cannot allow themselves
> > > >halachically to hear a woman singing and
> therefore
> > > a
> > > >concession must be made to ensure that no one
> will
> > > >feel uncomfortable.
> > > >
> > > >im not saying that i think its a wonderful or
> > > terrible
> > > >halacha im just saying that some people
> (regardless
> > > of
> > > >their personal viewpoint about the halacha as
> > > well),
> > > >abide by it and its not right to state that
> they
> > > are
> > > >in the wrong just for being orthodox the way
> they
> > > >believe orthodoxy is meant to be.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >avi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >so you need to give it a little more
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>respect than that.
> > > >>The best way to handle a situation like this
> is to
> > > >>educate yourself and others.
> > > >>
> > > >>The fact is that there are strong halachik
> (Jewish
> > > >>Legal) arguments
> > > >>against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a
> woman's
> > > >>voice is not a problem,
> > > >>understanding what these are and being able to
> > > >>present them when necessary
> > > >>would be a more constructive approach then
> being
> > > >>dismissive.
> > > >>
> > > >>Cheers,
> > > >>
> > > >>Dan
> > > >>
> > > >>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>>Love,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>Rosa Parks
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>community needs to have it in
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>their face and take it upon themselves to
> realize
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>that in our times living
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>precedent for changing the
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>custom. And why do I feel so much like that
> old
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>Steve Martin character on
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>Saturday Night Live saying it?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>                            EK
> > > >>>
> > > >>>www.zelwel.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >> - Dan Jacobs
> > > >> - 07956 246 659
> > > >>
> > > >>----------------------
> jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > > >>---------------------+
> > > >>