Re: kol isha in action

[Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel...>]

> according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a human
>

Disagree- there is a definite distinction in the Orthodox tradition between
d'rabbanan (from the rabbi's) and d'oraitha (from the written or oral
traditions).


----- Original Message -----
From: "avi finegold" <afinegold (at) yahoo(dot)com>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: kol isha in action


>
> --- Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org> wrote:
> > I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> > example.  If you go to an
> > event with kosher food, everyone can still eat it.
> > Kashrut is spelled
> > out in the Torah.
>
> all it says int he torah is that you should not cook a
> kid in its mothers milk.
>  Kol Isha was created by a human.
>
> according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a human
>
>
> > Kashrut has made
> > sense for many reasons in many times in history.
>
> WHOA! im a rabbinical student and im still grappling
> with the notion of kosher being a logical thing to
> follow. i even have a hard time understanding why i
> should not eat fish and meat on the same plate (which
> IS a rabbinically decreed custom). that doesnt mean i
> dont do it. a central tenetof orthodox philosophy
> stress the notion that regardless of there being a
> reason for doing it or not, it should still be
> followed. of course this isnt to say that we shouldnt
> try and understand why a law exists or not.
> > Kol Isha does not make
> > sense.
>
> maybe according to you, but many many orthodox people
> would argue with you.
>
>  I understand that many people abide by it.
> > Shall I say that
> > people of African descent and women were not allowed
> > to vote in this
> > country by law, and that people abided by it and so
> > we should respect
> > that and not try to change it?
>
>
> thse were laws which were made by humans, which make
> them ultimately fallible and open to change, unlike
> orthodox halacha which is divinely ordained and not
> open to revision.
>
>
>  It was wrong.
> > Again, I challenge
> > someone to tell me how my woman's voice offends,
> > aside from stating that
> > it is Halacha.
> > Lorele
> >
>
>
> without getting into it too much as this has gone on
> long enough (though im sure itll come up in a future
> email) orthdox halacha would say that the voice of a
> woman is a turn-on to males and that therefore men
> should not be listening to it. (note that the
> prohibition isnt for women to sing its or men not to
> hear which does not silece half the population as one
> might argue...)
>
>
> avi
>
>
> > avi finegold wrote:
> >
> > >--- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>Hi,
> > >>
> > >>It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
> > >>offensive and
> > >>un-necessary),
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >youre right about the law part but what makes you
> > >think you have the right to pass judgement for
> > >orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and
> > unnecesariness
> > >
> > >that may be the case for you but plenty of people
> > dont
> > >find it to be the case.
> > >as contentious an issue as it may be, many people
> > >still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> > whether
> > >or not you approve of it. for most people this
> > doesnt
> > >interfere with their everyday life and they dont
> > shove
> > >it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to
> > events
> > >where this might pose a problem for them. now you
> > have
> > >to admit that when someone is organizing an event
> > they
> > >have to take into consideration that they have to
> > >accomodate any people that they are inviting to the
> > >event. im not talking about people they might sell
> > >tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
> > >specifically said that they would like to see there
> > as
> > >a guest of honour or something else along those
> > lines.
> > >why cant you see it as a case of some people eat
> > >kosher and therefore when those people go to events
> > >people provide appropriate food solutions for them.
> > in
> > >this case some people cannot allow themselves
> > >halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore
> > a
> > >concession must be made to ensure that no one will
> > >feel uncomfortable.
> > >
> > >im not saying that i think its a wonderful or
> > terrible
> > >halacha im just saying that some people (regardless
> > of
> > >their personal viewpoint about the halacha as
> > well),
> > >abide by it and its not right to state that they
> > are
> > >in the wrong just for being orthodox the way they
> > >believe orthodoxy is meant to be.
> > >
> > >
> > >avi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >so you need to give it a little more
> > >
> > >
> > >>respect than that.
> > >>The best way to handle a situation like this is to
> > >>educate yourself and others.
> > >>
> > >>The fact is that there are strong halachik (Jewish
> > >>Legal) arguments
> > >>against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a woman's
> > >>voice is not a problem,
> > >>understanding what these are and being able to
> > >>present them when necessary
> > >>would be a more constructive approach then being
> > >>dismissive.
> > >>
> > >>Cheers,
> > >>
> > >>Dan
> > >>
> > >>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>Love,
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Rosa Parks
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>community needs to have it in
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>their face and take it upon themselves to realize
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>that in our times living
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>precedent for changing the
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>custom. And why do I feel so much like that old
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>Steve Martin character on
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Saturday Night Live saying it?
> > >>>
> > >>>                            EK
> > >>>
> > >>>www.zelwel.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> - Dan Jacobs
> > >> - 07956 246 659
> > >>
> > >>---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > >>---------------------+
> > >>