Re: kol isha in action

[avi finegold <afinegold...>]

--- Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org> wrote:
> I don't think that using kashrut is a parallel
> example.  If you go to an 
> event with kosher food, everyone can still eat it. 
> Kashrut is spelled 
> out in the Torah.

all it says int he torah is that you should not cook a
kid in its mothers milk. 
 Kol Isha was created by a human. 

according to orthodoxy nothing was created by a human


> Kashrut has made 
> sense for many reasons in many times in history. 

WHOA! im a rabbinical student and im still grappling
with the notion of kosher being a logical thing to
follow. i even have a hard time understanding why i
should not eat fish and meat on the same plate (which
IS a rabbinically decreed custom). that doesnt mean i
dont do it. a central tenetof orthodox philosophy
stress the notion that regardless of there being a
reason for doing it or not, it should still be
followed. of course this isnt to say that we shouldnt
try and understand why a law exists or not. 
> Kol Isha does not make 
> sense. 

maybe according to you, but many many orthodox people
would argue with you.

 I understand that many people abide by it. 
> Shall I say that 
> people of African descent and women were not allowed
> to vote in this 
> country by law, and that people abided by it and so
> we should respect 
> that and not try to change it? 


thse were laws which were made by humans, which make
them ultimately fallible and open to change, unlike
orthodox halacha which is divinely ordained and not
open to revision.


 It was wrong. 
> Again, I challenge 
> someone to tell me how my woman's voice offends,
> aside from stating that 
> it is Halacha.
> Lorele
> 


without getting into it too much as this has gone on
long enough (though im sure itll come up in a future
email) orthdox halacha would say that the voice of a
woman is a turn-on to males and that therefore men
should not be listening to it. (note that the
prohibition isnt for women to sing its or men not to
hear which does not silece half the population as one
might argue...)


avi


> avi finegold wrote:
> 
> >--- Dan Jacobs <dan (at) caliginous(dot)com> wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>It's not a custom it's Jewish law (a law that is
> >>offensive and
> >>un-necessary), 
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >youre right about the law part but what makes you
> >think you have the right to pass judgement for
> >orthodoxy on relative offensiveness and
> unnecesariness
> >
> >that may be the case for you but plenty of people
> dont
> >find it to be the case. 
> >as contentious an issue as it may be, many people
> >still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> whether
> >or not you approve of it. for most people this
> doesnt
> >interfere with their everyday life and they dont
> shove
> >it into peoples faces, they simply dont go to
> events
> >where this might pose a problem for them. now you
> have
> >to admit that when someone is organizing an event
> they
> >have to take into consideration that they have to
> >accomodate any people that they are inviting to the
> >event. im not talking about people they might sell
> >tickets to, i refer here to people whom theyve
> >specifically said that they would like to see there
> as
> >a guest of honour or something else along those
> lines.
> >why cant you see it as a case of some people eat
> >kosher and therefore when those people go to events
> >people provide appropriate food solutions for them.
> in
> >this case some people cannot allow themselves
> >halachically to hear a woman singing and therefore
> a
> >concession must be made to ensure that no one will
> >feel uncomfortable.
> >
> >im not saying that i think its a wonderful or
> terrible
> >halacha im just saying that some people (regardless
> of
> >their personal viewpoint about the halacha as
> well),
> >abide by it and its not right to state that they
> are
> >in the wrong just for being orthodox the way they
> >believe orthodoxy is meant to be. 
> >
> >
> >avi
> >
> >
> >
> >so you need to give it a little more
> >  
> >
> >>respect than that.
> >>The best way to handle a situation like this is to
> >>educate yourself and others.
> >>
> >>The fact is that there are strong halachik (Jewish
> >>Legal) arguments
> >>against Kol Isha, i.e. that listening to a woman's
> >>voice is not a problem,
> >>understanding what these are and being able to
> >>present them when necessary
> >>would be a more constructive approach then being
> >>dismissive.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>
> >>Dan
> >>
> >>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>Love,
> >>>>
> >>>>Rosa Parks
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>Maybe that's what's gotta happen. Maybe some
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>community needs to have it in
> >>    
> >>
> >>>their face and take it upon themselves to realize
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>that in our times living
> >>    
> >>
> >>>in our world this is ridiculous and to set a
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>precedent for changing the
> >>    
> >>
> >>>custom. And why do I feel so much like that old
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>Steve Martin character on
> >>    
> >>
> >>>Saturday Night Live saying it?
> >>>
> >>>                            EK
> >>>
> >>>www.zelwel.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >> - Dan Jacobs
> >> - 07956 246 659
> >>
> >>---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >>---------------------+
> >>