Re: Kol Isha - Just the Facts, please!

[Ms. Cat <alanamscat...>]

YOu're right, especially today, and in particular
about the Hungarians - who have always been sort of a
law unto themselves, and completely unlike anyone else
around them (even today their denominations are almost
completely different from everyone else's, whether
we're speaking about Orthodox, COnservative or Reform,
all of which have different names, and completely
different traditions than those equivalents either in
the US, Israel or other partsof Europe.

Alana
--- Jordan Hirsch <trombaedu (at) earthlink(dot)net> wrote:
> Alana,
> The content of your Email is certainly interesting
> and undoubtedly
> accurate. However, in terms of the approach to
> Kabbalistic texts of the
> chasidim, there is a much greater fear (for want of
> a better word) of
> gender mixing in the Chasidic world. Maybe it did
> not play out in the
> early years of Chasidus, but as a "chasidic
> approach" evolved, the gender
> walls became ever more rigid, especially in the
> sects like Satmar that
> came from the Hungarian part of the Hapsburg empire.
> Groups lke Belz and
> Lubavitch were always more worldly.
> 
> Jordan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> y"Ms. Cat" wrote:
> 
> > --- Jordan Hirsch <trombaedu (at) earthlink(dot)net> wrote:
> > > It is my opinion that as Chasidim have started
> > > learning in more Lithuanian style Yeshivos in
> the
> > > last twenty years, their customs have also
> > > infiltrated the thinking in those "litvishe"
> > > Yeshivos.
> > > Chasidic thinking was always based on a mystical
> > > approach to Gender relations, which mandated
> many
> > > more distinctions in behavior and mixing.
> > > ... But what is important is the way in which
> > > those ideas have become more mainstream than
> they
> > > ever were.
> >
> > Actually, historically speaking, this is almost
> > exactly backwards (perhaps historically is
> different
> > than practically though), in that it's actually
> the
> > case that when Chasidism began, one of the reasons
> > that the mitnagdim hated them so much was because
> they
> > thought that their (in mitnagdish eyes. I am not
> here
> > expressing an opinion) utter disregard of halacha
> was
> > apikorsis - especially in their notions of
> > transmigration of souls -- and in the fact that
> women
> > in chasidism often had a much wider variety of
> > opportunities for public leadership, beginning
> with
> > the daughter of the Baal Shem Tov, Edel, who
> > accompanied him everywhere, and whom he claimed
> had "a
> > man's soul."
> > Other chasidic women were heads of "courts"
> sometimes
> > jointly with their husbands, sometimes *on their
> own.*
> > Some became ascetic and hermit "holy women," to
> whom
> > people went for blessings and prayers on their
> behalf,
> > just as they would to a man. Many women wrote
> > manuscripts of various sorts, some gave piskei
> > halachah (halachic legal decisions), taught (often
> > from behind a screen or some such thing), gave
> divrei
> > torah publicly, wore tzitzit and tefilin, received
> > petitions from their chasidim, or had mystical
> > experiences that they spoke about publically, and
> so
> > on. We know for certain of a few dozen - there
> were
> > almost certainly hundreds more whom we don't know
> > about by name or title, because as chasidism
> became
> > more mainstream, it has attempted to bury its
> rather
> > more radical past.
> > A short and reasonably coherent account of some of
> the
> > women whom we know of for certain can be found in
> a
> > book called _Written Out of History_ by Henry and
> > Taitz, although with some little research, one can
> > find writings on some of these women on one's own.
> >
> > OTOH, Judith writes:
> > "At one synagogue where the rabbi cancelled a
> concert
> > of mine which the sisterhood had already set up
> and
> > advertised on "kol isha " grounds, he then said it
> > would be ok if even one other woman sang with me .
> I
> > said the only other woman I knew at the time (my
> > daughter was small and not singing much yet) who
> > really knew the style well (a former member of
> > Gerineldo) was much more gorgeous and sexy and
> > potentially lust-inspiring than I, and I couldn't
> see
> > why that would be a mitigating factor. He said,
> that
> > was ok.
> >
> > This exchange did nothing to convince me of the
> > "right" of rabbis to make these decisions."
> >
> > Whether one agrees with the decision or not (I've
> made
> > what I think is the correct halachah on KI clear),
> it
> > is certainly the case that rabbi have the "right"
> as
> > well as the obligation to make such decisions.
> That
> > is, simply as a matter of fact, what rabbis do.
> They
> > study and learn the sources -Torah (including
> talmud)
> > and other commentators, and make legal decisions.
> > Indeed, it is precisely what a rabbi is.
> > Anyone can become a rav if you're willing to give
> up a
> > number of years of your life, study Jewish law
> > intensively, understand that you're obligated to
> obey
> > the law (as any Jew is, of course), learn the
> > hermaneutics of interpretation, and study how
> others
> > have applied them. That's what gives rabbis the
> > "right," together with the Torah, which tells us
> that
> > one must obey the decisions of the judges of our
> day -
> > which is what rabbis are.
> > As for the case given, if, in fact, one does hold
> by
> > KI that it isn't just about someone trying to
> recite
> > the shma, the rabbi is correct in that it isn't
> the
> > woman's physical appearance which causes KI
> (otherwise
> > it wouldn't be *kol*), it's the voice.
> > There are, of course, other problems with physical
> > appearance and dress, but they aren't kol isha,
> and
> > one doesn't (necessarily) need to deal with them
> > simultaneously.
> >
> > Alana Suskin
> >
> > __________________________________
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> 
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