Re: Kol Isha - Just the Facts, please!

[Jordan Hirsch <trombaedu...>]

Sylvia and I are on the same page when it comes to the issue of how to
handle minority opinions regarding concert performances.
It is interesting that Sylvia brings up Williamsburg. For those not from
New York, Williamsburg is more of a Chasidic neighborhood than just
Orthodox. It is my opinion that as Chasidim have started learning in
more Lithuanian style Yeshivos in the last twenty years, their customs
have also infiltrated the thinking in those "litvishe" Yeshivos.
Chasidic thinking was always based on a mystical approach to Gender
relations, which mandated many more distinctions in behavior and mixing.
Some of them are quite interesting, others would probably make the more
left wing amoing us scream. But what is important is the way in which
those ideas have become more mainstream than they ever were.
Sylvia alluded to thrree or four other things that I could discuss, but
I do want to avoid the advanced Talmud Class, as Sam put it. Thse
interested should contact me off list.

Jordan

Sylvia Schildt wrote:

> Lenka, you can't always assume that everyone follows the pattern.
>
> A couple of years ago I attended a pre-Slichos concert at our modern
> Orthodox shul, Beth Tfiloh, and Nehama Carlebach with band in a mini
> skirt was the featured performer ON THE BIMAH.
>
> After the concert, men and women separated into their sections (lately
> they have installed a curtain) and the Slichos service and the male
> chazn, the very wonderful Avi Albrecht took over. This is a mixed
> congregation of typically minimally observant all the way to black
> hats and Mizrahis from Iran and Iraq.
>
> A few small observations and I will go away.
>
> I have been following this discussion very closely and I think in the
> main its tone has been more collegial than the last round -- so maybe
> we are making some headway after all.
>
> Orthodoxy itself is in transition on many issues and I think the
> growing number of college-educated Orthodox women is creating pressure
> points center stage and behind the scenes. It is not the place of the
> non-Orthodox however, to tell them what to do on their own home turf.
>
> My beef is with the entities who serve non-Orthodox primarily.  Since
> they do not feel themselves religiously bound by KI, they should not
> pre-emptively kowtow to an Orthodox minority in their hiring
> practices. and just let everyone in the audience follow his own
> conscience on the matter. This is where we need to put the pressure.
>
> And I keep coming back to the model of my own shtetele Brownsville.
> There was not a shul or a wedding place that was not Orthodox. But
> when the wedding place across the street would burst into klezmer
> music Saturday after the ORTHODOX ceremony, we could often hear a
> female singer doing Yiddish and pop tunes and the ubiquitous (at that
> time) "Because." The chazntes, long before there were such things as
> lady cantors singing at worship services, were part and parcel of the
> scene. I never saw a protest mounted against them in front of a shul
> or concert hall.
>
> Strict Orthodoxy today, its population burgeoning with Baale Tchuva,
> seems to be more rigid than its forebears on many issues. I never even
> heard of KI or yoshen wheat or other matters until recently. Separate
> closed off dancing was something you expected in WILLIAMSBURG, nowhere
> else. You either participated in the dancing or you didn't -- but you
> didn't leave until the band played "Goodnight, Sweetheart."
>
>
> Sylvia Schildt
> Baltimore, Maryland
>
> PS - The English version of Mayn Shtetel Brunzvil (Remembering
> Brownsville) is being readied to go to press. $12USD PLUS 4.50 s/h)
> Let me know privately if you are interested.
>
>
> on 1/23/04 12:56 PM, lenka lichtenberg at lenkal (at) sympatico(dot)ca wrote:
>
>
>      ...as well as orthodox Sephardic shuls, absolutely, at least
>      in Canada. Zero female involvement is a given, from doing an
>      aliyah to singing/chanting anything whatsoever, in or out of
>      service. i suppose that comes with the term "orthodox".
>      lenka
>
>      www.lenkalichtenberg.com <http://www.lenkalichtenberg.com>
>
>           I'd think you can assume it as a given with almost
>           any Ashkenazic, orthodox
>           shul in the United States ........
>           ...
>
>
>           ----- Original Message -----
>           From: "Alex Jacobowitz"
>           <alexbjacobowitz (at) yahoo(dot)com>
>           To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
>           <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>           Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 8:47 AM
>           Subject: Re: Kol Isha - Just the Facts, please!
>
>
>           > --- Sam Weiss <SamWeiss (at) bellatlantic(dot)net> wrote:
>
>           > > At 01:49 AM 1/23/04, Yoel Epstein wrote:
>           > > >Perhaps some of you would like to compile a
>           list of
>           > > specific gigs that
>           > > >were
>           > > >refused or cancelled because a female singer
>           > > participated in the
>           > > >band.  Then
>           > > >we might have a starting point for actually
>           doing
>           > > something about this.
>           > >
>           > > Such a list would not even scratch the
>           surface,
>           > > since the assumption of Kol
>           > > Isha very often precludes female soloists and
>           bands
>           > > with a female singer
>           > > from even being considered at all.
>           >
>           > Au contraire, it WOULD scratch the surface -
>           > at least insofar as this list is concerned.
>           > As in other political opinions, there would
>           > most likely be "right", "centrist" and "left"
>           > versions of KI - and its implementation. If
>           > any gig were to be refused or cancelled for
>           > KI reasons, it would be most illustrative to
>           > see whether the sponsors give that as the
>           > reason, or whether they hide behind some kind
>           > of subterfuge. And since on this list
>           > we´ve only heard from the femails in this case,
>           I
>           > wouldn´t mind hearing the other side´s view -
>           those
>           > who are involved in the decision-making process.
>
>           >
>           > Bring it on!
>           >
>           > Alex
>           >
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