Re: Kol Isha

I read your posts. I just don't agree with you. And hey that's what makes a horse race.

Shalom,

Trudi

>From: Jordan Hirsch

>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org

>To: World music from a Jewish slant

>Subject: Re: Kol Isha

>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 08:14:49 -0500

>well, I have plenty of Rachmanus. If you read my posts, what I found

>offensive was a very specific portion of your post having to do with the

>nature of Rabbinic authority when there is no explicit word of God on

>the subject. Yoou should go back and re-read my posts. I am very

>specific.

>The question of rights is not for me an issue. Not because they are not

>important,

>but because every individual may perceive their needs differently, and

>therefore requires a solution that works for them. If you are being

>denied something important to you, than it is the responsibility of the

>community with which you are dealing to treat you in an honest ethical

>fashion. It does not require all of the Jewsih community to throw out

>the Shulchan Aruch.

>JH

>Trudi Goodman wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jordan:

> >

> > I love being Jewish. I believe that HaShem gave me a heart and mind

> > and talent and the ability and the perserverance to use it. Am I

> > offensive... nishts. Am I passionate? I certainly hope so. If you

> > believe that halachically or otherwise that women are treated fairly

> > through these kinds of restrictions on movement and thought...I

> > suggest you come back as a Jewish woman and see if you enjoy this kind

> > of thing. Is this enough now? Anybody who knows me, knows that I

> > have a good heart and a generous spirit. Believe whatever you want...I

> > fully intend on believing just what I want. And ahemmm since when is

> > the idea that HaShem loves everyone and encourages and grants

> > creativity offensive??? With tongue firmly planted in cheek I suggest

> > that you have your rachmones(empathy) meter check...clearly the

> > batteries are running low.

> >

> > Shalom,

> >

> > Trudi

> >

> > >From: Jordan Hirsch

> > >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org

> > >To: World music from a Jewish slant

> > >Subject: Re: Kol Isha

> > >Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:21:07 -0500

> > >

> > >I agree that the rules are more fluid than some might admit. what was

> >

> > >offensive about Trudi's post was not the passion, which is certainly

> > not

> > >mine to judge, but the suggestion that there is something inherently

> > >illegitimate about Rabbinic tradition that does not have the backing

> > of a

> > >specific divine revelation. That flies in the face of what to the

> > longest

> > >standing community of Ashkenazic Jews is a basic tenet, namely the

> > right of

> > >Rabbis to interpret the Torah, even at the risk of misunderstanding

> > of God's

> > >intention.

> > >That does not mean that think Trudi is mean spirited, only that she

> > >expressed an argument that only only be characterized as such.

> > >

> > >Jordan

> > >

> > >TTova wrote:

> > >

> > > > Not mean spirited..... perhaps just fiercely passionate.

> > > > not sure what would offend you in Trudi's POV

> > > > This is a such a struggle for many of us.

> > > > To have our mothers fight so hard to be treated with respect and

> > > > equality and yet to have this sexist attitude prevail is scary.

> > > >

> > > > I met a chassid in Paris who after learning what I did informed me

> > he

> > > > would get 200 yiddish speaking jews out to hear me sing...

> > > > I said " but of course you won't come yourself"?

> > > > he then smiled and said he would do whatever he felt like

> > doing.... and

> > > > if he wanted to hear a woman sing he would,

> > > > At Ashkenaz, my husband told me that at the back of the crowd of

> > almost

> > > > 5000 there was a religious man with tsitses shucking and jiving to

> > my

> > > > Yiddish rendition of Los es Shnayen, Los es Shnayen, Los es

> > Shnayen.

> > > > So I suppose as in most living traditions which must grow with the

> >

> > > > times there are no hard and fast rules?....

> > > >

> > > > http://www.theresatova.com

> > > > On Jan 18, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Jordan Hirsch wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Ari,

> > > > > I think this is one of those mean spirited posts over which you

> > were

> > > > > concerned.

> > > > > I am deeply offended that it made it to the list.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jordan

> > > > >

> > > > > Trudi Goodman wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Here's the deal and here's the dance. As a woman performer I

> > refuse to

> > > > >> abide by Kol Isha. I consider it a man-made law and not a G-d

> > made

> > > > >> law. When people, particularly men, who have a vested interest

> > in

> > > > >> wanting to keep women in their place religiously and culturally

> > start

> > > > >> siting law to substantiate their views...well all I can say is

> > there

> > > > >> isn't any reason why people should put up with it.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> If you can show me that HaShem doesn't want women to sing

> > around men

> > > > >> and male children. That HaShem has actually leaned into your

> > ear and

> > > > >> told you that for an absolute fact...then I'll listen.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Otherwise, it's just speculation. And I refuse to believe that

> > HaShem

> > > > >> would want half of society to not fulfill themselves creatively

> > and

> > > > >> personally in any setting. HaShem is all about love NOT

> > > > >> narrow-mindedness.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> I grew up around Orthodoxy and Chassidism...when there is a

> > woman

> > > > >> rabbi and/or cantor in those reigious traditions then I'll

> > actually

> > > > >> feel like I want to listen to this type of woman-hating. woman

> > > > >> adversation behavior masquerading as religious thought. And

> > address

> > > > >> it!

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Hey if the men don' like the women's voices WHY DON'T THEY GET

> > UP AND

> > > > >> LEAVE???

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Darned presumptious to think that a woman OUGHT to!

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Hey, there's a reason why some people, myself included stopped

> > > > >> addressing the Kol Isha issue on this list...it's not my

> > experience

> > > > >> that this issue will be resolved. It hasn't been in the Jewish

> > > > >> community, specifically or at large.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Shalom,

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Trudi Goodman

> > > > >>

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> > > > >> -

> > > > >> Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

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