Fw: Re: Kol Isha

[Lori M Simon <lorelecs...>]

Some questions for me are:
Are women's libidos presumed to be less than men's and therefore not as
distractible by a man's voice as a man is by a woman's?
Are women's capabilities to experience kavanah less intense, therefore
hearing a man's voice would not matter as much if distracted?

It bothers me that in most shuls I have been to where there is a
mechitza, there is not an equal separation.  The women's view of the bima
is obstructed and hearing is impaired.  It does not encourage
participation.  (Imagine having to watch a movie through colored and
scratched plastic, for example.  Is this conducive to paying attention
and understanding what's going on?) Where women participate by davening
aloud, are not their voices still heard by the men, even a little?  Isn't
that distracting?  Or in some, where the women are having conversations
and the children playing, is not this noise more distracting than voices
raised in concert with the rest of the group would be?

Lorele


On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 07:53:51 -0500 "Robert Wiener"
<wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com> writes:
> Alex (Jacobowitz),
> 
> The premise of your post seems to be that the principle of Kol Isha 
> is for
> "the sake of approaching the divine, i.e., trying to leave the 
> physical
> behind" while engaged in the Avoda Kedosha.
> 
> If you are correct in your interpretation, do you mean (as has been 
> noted
> before) that a man singing cannot "distract" or "arouse" women, or, 
> for
> that matter, other (perhaps homosexual) men?  Would you consider it 
> a
> logical rabbinic ruling that a homosexual, to leave the physical 
> behind,
> may only listen to the voice of a shaliach tsibur of the opposite 
> sex?
> 
> If the rabbis made women exempt from the requirement not to listen 
> to the
> voice of the opposite sex, why is that do you think? Because,
> 1. the voice of the man is not distracting, at least to women (see 
> above)?
> 2. women are less easily distracted in general?
> 3. women aren't expected to be at t'filot?  [If so, should women and 
> men
> always be separate for t'filot, as before Matan Torah at Sinai?]
> 4. women are not expected to approach the divine?
> 5. women are already so close to the divine that this is not a 
> concern for
> them?
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Alex Jacobowitz <alexbjacobowitz (at) yahoo(dot)com>
> > To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> > Date: 1/19/2004 3:21:44 AM
> > Subject: Kol Isha - erotically
> ...
> > Nor is the "Kol Isha" law by any means the only form
> > of "separation" in Judaism. We separate Shabbos from
> > the week, in that playing music (for the time being)
> > is forbidden. We separate men from women
> > (or, if you like, women from men) with a mechitza
> > during the Avoda Kedosha for the sake of approaching
> > the divine, i.e., trying to leave the physical behind.
> >
> > (This goes back to the receiving of the Tora,
> > where we read in the Midrash that the men were
> > separated from the women for three days prior.)
> >
> > We are required to dress modestly at all times,
> > but particularly during the Avoda Kedosha. Why?
> > To support the concentration (or, if you like,
> > holy intercourse) by deleting the superfluous.
> > And it´s quite likely that this was the
> > context of the Kol Isha´s provenance. If
> > women were (are) exempt from davening, then
> > listening to women´s voices during a man´s davening
> > could only have been considered a distraction.
> 
> ...
> >
> > Why hasn´t anyone written about the hard fact,
> > that a woman singing in public is for many men
> > a turn-on, a "spinning in the marketplace"?
> > Why hasn´t anyone complained, that men don´t
> > want to be aroused, or women to arouse? Why hasn´t
> > anyone forwarded the solution of Bruria,
> > who taught Tora from behind a barrier?
> >
> ...
> > Most succinctly, at what point do we -
> > as a community - draw the line? Has no one
> > here ever received fan mail? Has no one
> > here experienced an enthralled listener with
> > that look in his or her eye? Are we all
> > really ignorant of the effect our music
> > has on our listeners, holy as well as provocative?
> >
> > Alex Jacobowitz
> >
> 
> 
> ---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org 
> ---------------------+
>