RE: Kol Isha

[Mel Korn <mkorn...>]

In my opinion, perhaps this aspect of the discussion should move off list.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
[mailto:owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org]On Behalf Of Jordan Hirsch
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 6:48 PM
To: World music from a Jewish slant
Subject: Re: Kol Isha

So what you are saying is that it is not offensive to say those things which
I find offensive. That is a logical impossibility. You cna say that I am
hypersensitive, or that my understanding of a topic is uninformed, or that I
do not make a cogent argument. You cannot say that i am not offended by
something you said. I am. And I will not address this with you further,
because to be frank, a person that deligitimizes jewish law in the way that
you have cannot be responded to because there is no logical common ground to
explain the disagreement. It is a fact that Halacha depends on accepting
Rabbinical authority. One is free to reject halacha, but saying that it
works in a way other than the one that we know to be true is inaccurate.
Those who observe it choose to do so because as part of their belief system
they accept the validity of the process. You do not, which is fine, but that
is what the real disagreement is about.
JH
Trudi Goodman wrote:

I read your posts. I just don't agree with you. And hey that's what makes a
horse race.
Shalom,
Trudi



>From: Jordan Hirsch
>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>To: World music from a Jewish slant
>Subject: Re: Kol Isha
>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 08:14:49 -0500
>
>well, I have plenty of Rachmanus. If you read my posts, what I found
>offensive was a very specific portion of your post having to do with the
>nature of Rabbinic authority when there is no explicit word of God on
>the subject. Yoou should go back and re-read my posts. I am very
>specific.
>The question of rights is not for me an issue. Not because they are not
>important,
>but because every individual may perceive their needs differently, and
>therefore requires a solution that works for them. If you are being
>denied something important to you, than it is the responsibility of the
>community with which you are dealing to treat you in an honest ethical
>fashion. It does not require all of the Jewsih community to throw out
>the Shulchan Aruch.
>
>JH
>
>
>Trudi Goodman wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Dear Jordan:
> >
> > I love being Jewish.  I believe that HaShem gave me a heart and mind
> > and talent and the ability and the perserverance to use it.  Am I
> > offensive... nishts. Am I passionate? I certainly hope so. If you
> > believe that halachically or otherwise that women are treated fairly
> > through these kinds of restrictions on movement and thought...I
> > suggest you come back as a Jewish woman and see if you enjoy this kind
> > of thing.  Is this enough now?  Anybody who knows me, knows that I
> > have a good heart and a generous spirit. Believe whatever you want...I
> > fully intend on believing just what I want. And ahemmm since when is
> > the idea that HaShem loves everyone and encourages and grants
> > creativity offensive??? With tongue firmly planted in cheek I suggest
> > that you have your rachmones(empathy) meter check...clearly the
> > batteries are running low.
> >
> > Shalom,
> >
> > Trudi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Jordan Hirsch
> > >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > >To: World music from a Jewish slant
> > >Subject: Re: Kol Isha
> > >Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:21:07 -0500
> > >
> > >I agree that the rules are more fluid than some might admit. what was
> >
> > >offensive about Trudi's post was not the passion, which is certainly
> > not
> > >mine to judge, but the suggestion that there is something inherently
> > >illegitimate about Rabbinic tradition that does not have the backing
> > of a
> > >specific divine revelation. That flies in the face of what to the
> > longest
> > >standing community of Ashkenazic Jews is a basic tenet, namely the
> > right of
> > >Rabbis to interpret the Torah, even at the risk of misunderstanding
> > of God's
> > >intention.
> > >That does not mean that think Trudi is mean spirited, only that she
> > >expressed an argument that only only be characterized as such.
> > >
> > >Jordan
> > >
> > >
> > >TTova wrote:
> > >
> > > > Not mean spirited..... perhaps just fiercely passionate.
> > > > not sure what would offend you in Trudi's POV
> > > > This is a such a struggle for many of us.
> > > > To have our mothers fight so hard to be treated with respect and
> > > > equality and yet to have this sexist attitude prevail is scary.
> > > >
> > > > I met a chassid in Paris who after learning what I did informed me
> > he
> > > > would get 200 yiddish speaking jews out to hear me sing...
> > > > I said " but of course you won't come yourself"?
> > > > he then smiled and said he would do whatever he felt like
> > doing.... and
> > > > if he wanted to hear a woman sing he would,
> > > > At Ashkenaz, my husband told me that at the back of the crowd of
> > almost
> > > > 5000 there was a religious man with tsitses shucking and jiving to
> > my
> > > > Yiddish rendition of Los es Shnayen, Los es Shnayen, Los es
> > Shnayen.
> > > > So I suppose as in most living traditions which must grow with the
> >
> > > > times there are no hard and fast rules?....
> > > >
> > > > http://www.theresatova.com
> > > > On Jan 18, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Jordan Hirsch wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ari,
> > > > > I think this is one of those mean spirited posts over which you
> > were
> > > > > concerned.
> > > > > I am deeply offended that it made it to the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jordan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Trudi Goodman wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Here's the deal and here's the dance. As a woman performer I
> > refuse to
> > > > >> abide by Kol Isha. I consider it a man-made law and not a G-d
> > made
> > > > >> law. When people, particularly men, who have a vested interest
> > in
> > > > >> wanting to keep women in their place religiously and culturally
> > start
> > > > >> siting law to substantiate their views...well all I can say is
> > there
> > > > >> isn't any reason why people should put up with it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If you can show me that HaShem doesn't want women to sing
> > around men
> > > > >> and male children.  That HaShem has actually leaned into your
> > ear and
> > > > >> told you that for an absolute fact...then I'll listen.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Otherwise, it's just speculation.  And I refuse to believe that
> > HaShem
> > > > >> would want half of society to not fulfill themselves creatively
> > and
> > > > >> personally in any setting.  HaShem is all about love NOT
> > > > >> narrow-mindedness.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I grew up around Orthodoxy and Chassidism...when there is a
> > woman
> > > > >> rabbi and/or cantor in those reigious traditions then I'll
> > actually
> > > > >> feel like I want to listen to this type of woman-hating. woman
> > > > >> adversation behavior masquerading as religious thought. And
> > address
> > > > >> it!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hey if the men don' like the women's voices WHY DON'T THEY GET
> > UP AND
> > > > >> LEAVE???
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Darned presumptious to think that a woman OUGHT to!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hey, there's a reason why some people, myself included stopped
> > > > >> addressing the Kol Isha issue on this list...it's not my
> > experience
> > > > >> that this issue will be resolved. It hasn't been in the Jewish
> > > > >> community, specifically or at large.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Shalom,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trudi Goodman
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > > >> -
> > > > >> Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee.
>

  _____

Find high-speed ?net deals ? comparison-shop your local providers here.
<http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2737??PS=>  ----------------------
jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+