Re: Kol Isha

[Jordan Hirsch <trombaedu...>]

So what you are saying is that it is not offensive to say those things
which I find offensive. That is a logical impossibility. You cna say
that I am hypersensitive, or that my understanding of a topic is
uninformed, or that I do not make a cogent argument. You cannot say that
i am not offended by something you said. I am. And I will not address
this with you further, because to be frank, a person that deligitimizes
jewish law in the way that you have cannot be responded to because there
is no logical common ground to explain the disagreement. It is a fact
that Halacha depends on accepting Rabbinical authority. One is free to
reject halacha, but saying that it works in a way other than the one
that we know to be true is inaccurate. Those who observe it choose to do
so because as part of their belief system they accept the validity of
the process. You do not, which is fine, but that is what the real
disagreement is about.

JH

Trudi Goodman wrote:

>
>
> I read your posts. I just don't agree with you. And hey that's what
> makes a horse race.
>
> Shalom,
>
> Trudi
>
>
>
> >From: Jordan Hirsch
> >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >To: World music from a Jewish slant
> >Subject: Re: Kol Isha
> >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 08:14:49 -0500
> >
> >well, I have plenty of Rachmanus. If you read my posts, what I found
> >offensive was a very specific portion of your post having to do with
> the
> >nature of Rabbinic authority when there is no explicit word of God on
>
> >the subject. Yoou should go back and re-read my posts. I am very
> >specific.
> >The question of rights is not for me an issue. Not because they are
> not
> >important,
> >but because every individual may perceive their needs differently,
> and
> >therefore requires a solution that works for them. If you are being
> >denied something important to you, than it is the responsibility of
> the
> >community with which you are dealing to treat you in an honest
> ethical
> >fashion. It does not require all of the Jewsih community to throw out
>
> >the Shulchan Aruch.
> >
> >JH
> >
> >
> >Trudi Goodman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Jordan:
> > >
> > > I love being Jewish.  I believe that HaShem gave me a heart and
> mind
> > > and talent and the ability and the perserverance to use it.  Am I
> > > offensive... nishts. Am I passionate? I certainly hope so. If you
> > > believe that halachically or otherwise that women are treated
> fairly
> > > through these kinds of restrictions on movement and thought...I
> > > suggest you come back as a Jewish woman and see if you enjoy this
> kind
> > > of thing.  Is this enough now?  Anybody who knows me, knows that I
>
> > > have a good heart and a generous spirit. Believe whatever you
> want...I
> > > fully intend on believing just what I want. And ahemmm since when
> is
> > > the idea that HaShem loves everyone and encourages and grants
> > > creativity offensive??? With tongue firmly planted in cheek I
> suggest
> > > that you have your rachmones(empathy) meter check...clearly the
> > > batteries are running low.
> > >
> > > Shalom,
> > >
> > > Trudi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Jordan Hirsch
> > > >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > > >To: World music from a Jewish slant
> > > >Subject: Re: Kol Isha
> > > >Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:21:07 -0500
> > > >
> > > >I agree that the rules are more fluid than some might admit. what
> was
> > >
> > > >offensive about Trudi's post was not the passion, which is
> certainly
> > > not
> > > >mine to judge, but the suggestion that there is something
> inherently
> > > >illegitimate about Rabbinic tradition that does not have the
> backing
> > > of a
> > > >specific divine revelation. That flies in the face of what to the
>
> > > longest
> > > >standing community of Ashkenazic Jews is a basic tenet, namely
> the
> > > right of
> > > >Rabbis to interpret the Torah, even at the risk of
> misunderstanding
> > > of God's
> > > >intention.
> > > >That does not mean that think Trudi is mean spirited, only that
> she
> > > >expressed an argument that only only be characterized as such.
> > > >
> > > >Jordan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >TTova wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Not mean spirited..... perhaps just fiercely passionate.
> > > > > not sure what would offend you in Trudi's POV
> > > > > This is a such a struggle for many of us.
> > > > > To have our mothers fight so hard to be treated with respect
> and
> > > > > equality and yet to have this sexist attitude prevail is
> scary.
> > > > >
> > > > > I met a chassid in Paris who after learning what I did
> informed me
> > > he
> > > > > would get 200 yiddish speaking jews out to hear me sing...
> > > > > I said " but of course you won't come yourself"?
> > > > > he then smiled and said he would do whatever he felt like
> > > doing.... and
> > > > > if he wanted to hear a woman sing he would,
> > > > > At Ashkenaz, my husband told me that at the back of the crowd
> of
> > > almost
> > > > > 5000 there was a religious man with tsitses shucking and
> jiving to
> > > my
> > > > > Yiddish rendition of Los es Shnayen, Los es Shnayen, Los es
> > > Shnayen.
> > > > > So I suppose as in most living traditions which must grow with
> the
> > >
> > > > > times there are no hard and fast rules?....
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.theresatova.com
> > > > > On Jan 18, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Jordan Hirsch wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ari,
> > > > > > I think this is one of those mean spirited posts over which
> you
> > > were
> > > > > > concerned.
> > > > > > I am deeply offended that it made it to the list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jordan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Trudi Goodman wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Here's the deal and here's the dance. As a woman performer
> I
> > > refuse to
> > > > > >> abide by Kol Isha. I consider it a man-made law and not a
> G-d
> > > made
> > > > > >> law. When people, particularly men, who have a vested
> interest
> > > in
> > > > > >> wanting to keep women in their place religiously and
> culturally
> > > start
> > > > > >> siting law to substantiate their views...well all I can say
> is
> > > there
> > > > > >> isn't any reason why people should put up with it.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> If you can show me that HaShem doesn't want women to sing
> > > around men
> > > > > >> and male children.  That HaShem has actually leaned into
> your
> > > ear and
> > > > > >> told you that for an absolute fact...then I'll listen.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Otherwise, it's just speculation.  And I refuse to believe
> that
> > > HaShem
> > > > > >> would want half of society to not fulfill themselves
> creatively
> > > and
> > > > > >> personally in any setting.  HaShem is all about love NOT
> > > > > >> narrow-mindedness.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I grew up around Orthodoxy and Chassidism...when there is a
>
> > > woman
> > > > > >> rabbi and/or cantor in those reigious traditions then I'll
> > > actually
> > > > > >> feel like I want to listen to this type of woman-hating.
> woman
> > > > > >> adversation behavior masquerading as religious thought. And
>
> > > address
> > > > > >> it!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Hey if the men don' like the women's voices WHY DON'T THEY
> GET
> > > UP AND
> > > > > >> LEAVE???
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Darned presumptious to think that a woman OUGHT to!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Hey, there's a reason why some people, myself included
> stopped
> > > > > >> addressing the Kol Isha issue on this list...it's not my
> > > experience
> > > > > >> that this issue will be resolved. It hasn't been in the
> Jewish
> > > > > >> community, specifically or at large.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Shalom,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Trudi Goodman
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > >
> > > > > >> -
> > > > > >> Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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