Re: Kol Isha

[Jordan Hirsch <trombaedu...>]

I think your question is a crucial one.
It is ironic that my caution about probing motives is coming out on the more
consservative side of the argument. Usually, I am castigating right wingers for
questioning the motives of my "left wing" orthodox friends. My example has to
do with Women's Tefillah groups.
A number of years ago, when such groups started to gain popularity in the
Orthodox community, a nmuber of Rabbis came out with articles criticizing the
practice. What really got my goat was that the Rabbis could not really pin
their objection on any halachic problem, so they impugned the motives of the
practitioners, claiming that the WTG's were a product of Feminism and not a
sincere attempt to have a meaningful Religious experience, that they  were just
interested in breaking down tradition, blah blah blah.
I opposed this kind of probing of motives, even though in some cases the
motives may not have been for religious growth, but only to pursue a political
agenda, which should really be pursued in other ways. But it is not the place
of those Rabbis to question the motives of the Women's Tefillah Group members.
They are not God, who is only one who knows what we are thinking. Those Women
had a valid Halachic justification, which should have been the beginning and
end of the discussion.
I agree that there are many Rabbis who could use a little enlightening, to say
the least. But it is a basic tenet of orthodox tradition that Rabbinic
Authorities do not require a divine voice to determine how to interpret
halacha, even if they are wrong.
So my experience shows that probing motives cuts both ways.
As a member of the orthodox community, I can say without hesitation or doubt
that there are a lot of serious issues facing it, not the least of which is the
unwillingness on the part of it's leaders to admit that rest of the community
is not waiting for their approval to go on with their lives. But that does not
mean that it's traditions are to be dismissed where they don't fit into popular
sensibilities. To me, the Kol Isha discussion is really just a symptom of a
greater issue, namely, how to have true pluralism, that respects choices, and
yet recognizes that one of those choices is to not change with changing times.
it is more complexthan we can solve here, although I can't think of a nicer
group of people I would have this argument with.

Jordan
Shirona wrote:

>   Jordan I agree with you that we all need to be respectful!  But I strongly
> disagree about "not probing into motives", as you requested below. Aren't
> our motives even more important then our actions?  Aren't our motives the
> true indicator as to "where are we coming from"?  It's as if the women on
> this list are collectively asking the men on this list  ( just for
> argument's sake... I'm not presuming to speak for others...;-)  "where are
> you REALLY coming from when you invoke the Kol Isha laws to prevent us from
> singing in public, from earning a living as Cantor's or Singers...  The
> question is really - "what are your TRUE motives, not the actual "laws" you
> are invoking".  I realize this is a tough question, and that not too many
> men want to even "go there".
>
>   But do you agree that it IS a valid question?  Please answer...
>
>   May I share a personal experience?  Two years ago I was asked by a
> Conservative congregation to be their Cantor for the HH - and gave me a
> contract for this position - before I even knew any of the Nusach.  This
> congregation was familiar with the music I compose and with my singing, and
> they trusted that I would do a good job. I studied for about six months with
> Hazzan Sam Weiss (our very own...) who prepared me wonderfully for this
> awesome task. (Hi Sam!)  It was the first time this very old, Connecticut
> congregation had a female Cantor.  After the first day the rabbi told me
> this - "I see why men didn't want women to sing at services - they were
> insecure and feared that they could never sing to G-d as beautifully as
> women".  Old folks came up to me and told me that for 40 years they've been
> coming to this Shul on HH - and that for the first time were actually moved
> to FEEL the meaning of the T'filot.
>
>   Here's the point I'm getting at: While up there on the Bimah, with no
> choir or musical instruments - I truly felt like a Shliach Tzibur.  I didn't
> feel like a "woman" - and certainly didn't feel like a man...;-)  although I
> did sing the Hineni words as written - as if I had a long beard and all...I
> just felt like a PERSON  praying with all my heart and doing my best to
> illuminate the texts with music and give meaning to every word - for the
> sake of the community and myself. Being male or female had nothing to do
> with it!  Being male or female is only ONE aspect of our being - and it
> shouldn't (in my opinion) be the central factor of how we worship G-d.
>
>   Shirona
>   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>   Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music
>      www.shirona.com
>      www.cdbaby.com/shirona
>   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Jordan Hirsch" <trombaedu (at) earthlink(dot)net>
>   To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>   Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 11:03 AM
>   Subject: Re: Kol Isha
>
>   > That is also a good point. But that is not the issue. All i am asking
> for is a
>   > little more respect, and a little less probing of motives for its
> adherents.
>   >
>   > Jordan
>   >
>   > Eliezer Kaplan wrote:
>   >
>   > > Jordan said:
>   > >
>   > > > Is Kol Isha a man made interpretation of Ervah? Perhaps, but no part
> of
>   > > > Halachic and Talmudic tradition ever claimed otherwise. In fact, the
> idea
>   > > of
>   > > > Rabbinic interpretation overriding Heavenly decrees is firmly
> entrenched
>   > > in
>   > > > Jewish tradition. one does not need the voice of God whispering in
> his or
>   > > her
>   > > > ear to decide what halacha requires.
>   > >
>   > > The rabbis are human- what if they make a horrible mistake? Is that
> beyond
>   > > imagining or considering?
>   > >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>

---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+