Re: FW: RUN-DMC?

[Rmsarig <Rmsarig...>]

> Newspapers make mistakes ALL THE TIME, 
>  but this was a lengthy front page article in highly awarded paper and 
front 
>  page articles get a lot of care in newspapers.   As a regular reader for 
>  the last 17 years of Jewish Week and (several other Jewish newspapers - I 
>  think I read about 6 a week), I have high confidence in just about 
>  everything I read in the Jewish Week, unlike some other Jewish weeklies. 
>   The Jewish Week is a major information source for the whole American 
press 
>  and I can't remember when facts in it were successfully challenged.  You 
>  have expressed enough inaccuracies and naivete here for me not to accept 
>  anything you have written below.

I didn't suggest the Jewish Week is not able to report factual information, I 
was saying it has no idea about the content of rap lyrics and has apparently 
(granted, based solely on what I read in your earlier post) reported the 
facts incorrectly when it characterized "most" rap lyrics as anti-Semitic or 
misogynistic.

>  I can't access the article now, so I can't quote from it directly, but I 
>  will say the following.
>  I think I made it pretty clear that in April, Cohen sold his Def Jam 
>  company to Bronfman's company.   It was his company until that point and 
he 
>  has now joined Bronfman's.   

Def Jam was once independent, but in recent years was owned by Polygram, one 
of the "major record labels." When Universal (another major label, owned by 
Bronfman) bought Polygram last year, Def Jam was purchased as part of the 
deal.

>According to the Jewish Week, he was Public 
>  Enemy's manager and in fact made one of the main guys (Russel Simmons) a 
>  partner.   Since there was a quote from Simmons there to that effect, I 
>  don't know why you think you know better.   

If the Jewish Week reported this, they were wrong on many counts. Russell 
Simmons is an African-American businesman who founded Def Jam in the early 
'80s with another businessman/record producer, Rick Rubin. Simmons (whose 
brother is a member of Run DMC) and Rubin split in the late '80s, and (if 
memory serves correctly) Simmons hired Cohen to run the company. Cohen was 
successful and became a part-owner of the company at some point, before they 
sold (at least a majority interest) to Polygram. 

>Cohen released only the first 
>  albums of PE?!?!?!?  I don't know how you write that, but I am not going 
to 
>  the web page to check it, but maybe you should.

No, all of PE's albums were on Def Jam before their most recent release (the 
one with "Swindler's Lust"). I was saying that one of the two instances of 
anti-Semitism occured while the group recorded for Def Jam.
  
>  >Cohen is by no means the main force behind hip-hop music. He is an 
>  important
>  >record executive, but has no role in writing rap lyrics and is not even
>  >primarily responsible for rap's marketing success (I'd credit that to 
many 
>  >people and, in large part, to the fact that kids like it).
>  
>  This is simply your opinion.  If the role of writing lyrics is so 
>  important, I would really like to know when and where have we had a 
>  lyricist, any lyricist whose contribution was limited to lyrics, succeed 
in 
>  becoming a main force in any part of the American music industry?   

Here, I was making the self-evident point that it takes a lyricist to write 
an anti-Semitic lyrics. But in no way do I absolve a record executive of 
responsibility for the records he puts out.

>Since 
>  when is writing lyrics the measuring stick in assessing power in a music 
>  business?    We are talking about business and not emotional influence 
>  here, of let's say a Leonard Cohen or a Dylan, but then of course, they 
>  didn't become this rich from just writing lyrics to important songs that 
>  other people recorded.   They became a force in the industry once they 
>  recorded their own songs themselves, which is a whole different musical 
>  function.

I think you answered you're own question here. Someone like Dylan had a large 
impact on the culture as a lyricist, not primarily as a businessman. As for 
rappers (and most contemporary rock artists), they are both lyricists and 
performers.

>   You make rap music sound here as if we are talking about 
>  geniuses of the likes of Cole Porter, Ira Gershwin, Larry Hart or Sir 
>  Gilbert.  There aren't any in rap - with or without industry power.

Of course, you wouldn't know, because you've already indicated your 
intolerance to rap. But you're absolutely right: There aren't any writers in 
rap who can compose a song the way Porter or Gershwin could. And Porter and 
Gershwin couldn't rap. But we shouldn't hold that against them, I suppose. :)
  
>  If the credit goes to others, when and where has highly shrewd Master 
>  Bronfman Jr. or any other equivalent industry powerhouse offered anyone 
>  $150+ million dollars for their business?   What other rap label or great 
>  record producer did he buy out or bring into Polygram?  If Def Jam is only 
>  a middle size, albeit "important" record company, how does is it that 
>  Polygram can reach control of 25% percent of the whole music market with 
>  the mere acquisition of this company?

As I explained, Def Jam came along as part of the deal when Universal bought 
Polygram. No doubt Def Jam is a valuable asset, but I'm not sure if you 
realize the scope of things. Def Jam was only one of a dozen or so record 
labels that made up Polygram, and now it is one of two dozen or so labels 
that comprise Universal (the label that, in fact, now has about 20-25% of the 
market). Under its umbrella, Universal owns a number of other highly 
successful labels that release rap music. It is incorrect to say that 
Bronfman bought Polygram because he was desperate to control Def Jam (a label 
that has had more downs than ups in the 90s) or that he bought Polygram to 
bring Cohen onto his team. We're talking a one-billion dollar purchase. Some 
doubts have been raised about Bronfman Jr.'s ability to run an entertainment 
company, but it's doubtful he's that stupid.
  
>  >I'd credit that to many people and, in large part, to the fact that kids 
>  like it.
>  
>  And how did suburban mall kids who know nothing about living in ghettos 
and 
>  crude daily violence get to like this low-level music?  Yes, of course 
they 
>  just "naturally" liked it.   Sorry this too naive for a response.

Unfortunately, many people in our society like to vicariously experience 
violence and hear about things they perceive to be dangerous, adults as well 
as kids. That's part of the reason why violent movies are so popular. And 
that's why white kids like to hear about violence in the ghetto (even when 
the depiction of violence is largely fabricated for precisely this reason -- 
to sell records to white kids).

>  >to say "most" is frighteningly inaccurate. there are thousands of rap 
>  songs
>  >released each year, and the vast majority have nothing to do with Jews or
>  >anything political or racial. Most are about having fun, or about 
>  love/sex,
>  >just like any pop songs. there is, of course, a relatively large portion 
>  of
>  >songs that address ghetto life and violence. some of it is worthy of 
being 
>  >condemned, and a lot of it is at least exploitative, but most of it 
simply 
>  >involves young people talking about, for better or worse, what they see.
>  
>  Well, that's your opinion and I bet you are young, childless and feel 
>  little responsibility for kids' moral values.   The "thousands" of rap 
>  songs that come out today are mostly derivative.   Mr. Cohen produced and 
>  marketed the first important ones, the ones that set the tone, pattern, 
>  content and attitude of the whole genre.

Actually, the era of rap that Def Jam is most noted for is the late '80s, 
when rap was relatively clean (at least as clean as other pop music) and 
non-violent. In more recent years, Def Jam has become a follower of fashions, 
and offered some more objectionable "gangsta" rap.

>   As for the love/sex obsession, I 
>  think they are stupid, disgusting, and highly destructive to the all kids, 
>  but especially black kids.   I am angry when I see pre-adolescent kids, 
>  black or white, singing those inappropriate songs with their inappropriate 
>  focus.  Young adolescents and teens (5-15) are the ones who buy those 
>  records and the whole genre is inappropriate for them. 

In regards to the rap songs that are objectional, I completely agree. But 
I've also heard enough rap to know songs that are extremely intelligent and 
have positive messages.

>  Furthermore, just 
>  because "some" of the "total" number of produced records are innocuous, 
>  doesn't mean that this genre is innocuous for it's target audience.   Just 
>  because lots of kids watch those violent cartoons, doesn't mean that they 
>  are good for them or that we should sit for their being shown to children, 
>  and, indeed, people haven't.   Millions of parents, health professionals 
>  and communal leaders have continuously condemned this music from the very 
>  start, so I don't think that this is just a matter of my own personal 
>  "prejudiced" or "paranoid" opinion.  

I think it is. 

> We have all felt this way before and 
>  after Littleton.   Second, other companies and producers may have come 
>  after Cohen, but he was the first and the most important one and he made 
>  this stuff a markettable musical genre according to my information.   

Your information has some inaccuracies.

>  none of the above would be true and if Cohen would not be a master at 
this, 
>  Bronfman wouldn't have asked him to stay with the label.   You have to 
know 
>  a little about corporate business to understand that and I do read trade 
>  papers.

To reiterate what I wrote above, Cohen is one of a hundred or more top level 
executives who came over as part of the Universal/Polygram deal. That he's 
been successful in the past meant that he warranted keeping on.

>  >At the time, I never came across any instance of Cohen
>  >"staunchly defending" the group (and I read quite a bit about it), though 
>  it
>  >wouldn't suprise me given that he's a businessman interested in 
protecting 
>  >his business.
>  
>  Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about.   I don't know what you 
>  were reading at the time or since, but I myself remember how much heated 
>  verbiage was spilled on TV, radio, and newspapers at the time on their 
>  anti-Semitic remarks, because no one could understand how the record 
>  company (=Cohen) was staunchly defending PE. 

No, the heated verbiage was outrage at the comments themselves. I think the 
company did what most spineless bottom-line companies would do: lay low until 
the thing blowed over, and protect their investments (the artists) without 
appearing like they condone the comments.

>  Furthermore, the article not 
>  only writes about that very strong defense, but both Cohen and Simmons are 
>  quoted there on the importance of Cohen's strong defense of PE at the 
time. 
>    Since I live 13 blocks from 770 Eastern Parkway, I was closely observing 
>  such issues after the Crown Heights pogrom (1991).   But, what I didn't 
>  know at the time was that the owner was not only a Jew, but an Israeli.

As an Israeli Jew and a rap fan, I agree that his failure to take a strong 
stand is pretty pathetic.

>  >As for Cohen (and Bronfman and others), I agree that they bear a
>  >responsibility for what they put out, and don't always live up to it. But 
>  we
>  >must not overstate the issue of anti-Semitism in rap, and we certainly 
>  should
>  >not rely on Jewish Week for our information about the music.
>  
>  I gave a list in my writing of what is troublesome in rap music and it 
>  isn't limited to anti-Semitism.   I have no idea how many instances of 
>  anti-Semitic lyrics there are in rap music, but I don't believe that you 
>  know either.   Second, when you write that PE did it again just last year, 
>  it's obvious that they haven't learned anything from nearly a decade of 
>  discussion.  Quantity isn't always the critical issue in these kinds of 
>  things as much as the quality, i.e., the power of the person(s) making a 
>  remark.   A hundred rappers in Harlem recording heavy anti-Semitic or 
>  misogynistic remarks is still not equal to a Public Enemy or a Michael 
>  Jackson making one tenth the strength of a similar comment.

I agree. Each instance is terrible and should be condemned by everyone 
involved. But given the relatively few instances in rap song of 
anti-Semitism, it would suggest that their occasional appearances are merely 
a sympton (and not even the worst sympton) of anti-Semitism in the general 
culture. 

>  You must be very young, you must come from the suburbs and like this 
music. 
>    I live not that far from Bedford Stuyvesant and very glad that my 
teenage 
>  kids don't listen much to this music anymore...
  
If the small amount they did listen to was positive and clean, then I'm glad 
they had the opportunity to hear peers from other ethnic groups express 
themselves.
-Roni

  
>  Reyzl
>  

---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+