Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many Opinions!

[Eliott Kahn <Elkahn...>]

>Music has so much power and
>beauty and spirituality...and it hurts me when it is used as a conduit for
>the lowest of human impulses - violence, pornography, hatred, contempt,
>anger, hubris...I simply think that MUSIC deserves better companionship. 

>  Shirona
>  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 

If you feel this way about music, Shirona, then you did the right thing when 
you hung up your paintbrush!

Eliott

>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>  Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music
>     www.shirona.com
>     www.cdbaby.com/shirona
>  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Rabbi Alana Suskin" <alanamscat (at) yahoo(dot)com>
>  To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>  Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 1:06 PM
>  Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many Opinions!
>
>
>  > Shirona et al,
>  >
>  > There's a diference between saying, "I don't care for
>  > rap" and saying "Rap isn't art."
>  > What you're doing below is confusing those two things.
>  > If I go around saying classical music isn't art, it's
>  > the patriarchal and rather tiresome expression of dead
>  > european white men, does that have any bearing on
>  > whether the music is actually art or not, or is it
>  > just me expressing my personal preferences as
>  > authoritative?
>  > People are welcome to *feel* about music of any kind
>  > -any way they like, but that has nothing to do with
>  > whether it's art or not.
>  >
>  > The reason I suggested reading articles about rap and
>  > hip hop is because it's clear that many of the people
>  > on this list who are criticising it don't know what it
>  > is.
>  > Rap is not simply black men singing -as you say, "I
>  > want to f--- your little sister".
>  > To the contrary, hip hop culture and artists -for
>  > example KRS-One- come out of a tradition of
>  > consciousness raising and questioning white culture
>  > and authority, as well as self-improvement and
>  > cultural uplift. The fact that the little bit of rap
>  > you've heard has violent and ugly lyrics doesn't
>  > account for the tradition it comes out of, nor its
>  > purpose. And, in fact, even some of those violent and
>  > ugly lyrics have their purpose. I don't have to like
>  > them, myself, but a number of them come out of the
>  > tradition of Malcom X saying that black men have the
>  > right to defend themselves by owning guns. When he
>  > said this ( and he didn't by the way, advocate going
>  > aroun shooting people) white people went crazy,
>  > because what they heard was that black people should
>  > kill whites - but that's because whites were looking
>  > at his words froma particular viewpoint. SImilarly,
>  > those violent lyrics come out of a place where the
>  > ghetto culture is repudiating being kept poor, and
>  > looking at making money as a way out - which it is.
>  > Just look at O.J. SImpson. Anyone think he wouldn't be
>  > on death row if he hadn't made himself whiter through
>  > having  a lot of money?
>  >
>  > But actually, a lot of that is besde the point anyway,
>  > since shock value has often been a part of artistic
>  > development (Mozart, for example....) on one side, and
>  > onthe other, most hip hop is NOT violent and ugly. IN
>  > fact Rap comes out of a tradition of oral poetry,
>  > which then developed musical associations. It's not
>  > particularly new, although gangsta rap is relatively
>  > speaking a new outgrowth. And Hip Hop has been a
>  > musical and cultural combination from its outset.
>  >
>  > Ultimately it strikes me that your argument is that
>  > there needs to be a canon and an authority; The
>  > problem is then, WHO is the authority that decides
>  > what is art and what isn't?
>  > I'm not prepared to trust just anyone - after all, a
>  > quick look at statistics (see the Guerilla Girls
>  > website for more details) show that women's art is
>  > still hugely excluded from the canon, -that few women
>  > are hung on museum walls, and not all that many
>  > galleries hsow art by women. Do you really think that
>  > means that those chosen men are artists, and the women
>  > whose art didn't make it to those hallowed walls are
>  > not? I certainly don't. And I don't trust coroprations
>  > to make those decisions either - nor do I trust some
>  > sort of elite, either. I think it's more complicated
>  > than that, and ultimately too soon to tell.  Is folk
>  > art art? Some kinds and not others? How about crafts?
>  > Folk music? pottery? Quilting? SOme kinds of painting
>  > but not others? watercolor isn't but oils are? What?
>  > Time will give us a better notion than making
>  > arbitrary decisions based upon what we personally
>  > like. And the truth is probably that some things that
>  > might be art will be left out, and some things that
>  > ought not to be art might be left in . Or maybe not,
>  > maybe art is just a completely fabricated notion to
>  > give weight to some people's preferences over others.
>  >
>  > And I certainly don't think most of the pablum that we
>  > hear on radio these days (and that includes, thank you
>  > very much, most of what one hears on so-called indie
>  > stations and shows as well) qualifies as anything
>  > other than corporate salesmanship. I mean, does anyone
>  > really think that the White Stripes are art? And I
>  > don't particularly think that the Beatles are excluded
>  > from this - I want to hold your hand? Come on.
>  >
>  > Alana
>  >
>  > --- Shirona <shirona (at) bellatlantic(dot)net> wrote:>
>  > >I've heard
>  > > and regurgitated all those arguments..."don't
>  > > criticize what you can't
>  > > understand".  It is precisely this fear (of being
>  > > thought of as
>  > > "unenlightened" or "unsophisticated" or just plain
>  > > ignorant) that caused
>  > > people to shut up and say nothing...and to end up
>  > > not even knowing HOW they
>  > > feel.  Cultural Entropy.
>  > >
>  > >   Read articles about hip-hop or rap...?  What for?
>  > > To find out what I'm
>  > > somehow "not getting"?  If there was anything
>  > > attractive about it for me - I
>  > > probably would, on my own, without having to be
>  > > intimidated into doing so.
>  > > I'm sorry - not everything is relative.  For me
>  > > there is an "absolute"
>  > > difference between lyrics that say "I want to hold
>  > > your hand" (even if that
>  > > was really, really "radical" back then...;-) and
>  > > those who say "I want to
>  > > f--- your little sister".  Female singers have
>  > > morphed into soft-porn
>  > > "artists".  (Gee - am I missing the "above my
>  > > comprehension abilities"
>  > > message in this "art-form"?
>  > >
>  > >   Folks - please re-read this story by Hans
>  > > Christian Andersen
>  > >
>  > >   http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html
>  > >
>  > >   Maybe it's about us.
>  > >
>  > >   Shirona
>  > >   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>  > > * * * * * * * *
>  > >   Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music
>  > >      www.shirona.com
>  > >      www.cdbaby.com/shirona
>  > >   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>  > > * * * * * * * *
>  > >
>  > >   ----- Original Message -----
>  > >   From: "Eliott Kahn" <Elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
>  > >   To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
>  > > <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>  > >   Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:12 AM
>  > >   Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many
>  > > Opinions!
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >   > Beautifully said!
>  > >   >
>  > >   > I'm afraid we've been living in times
>  > > where--especially Academe--has a
>  > > relativistic conception of truth and beauty. If it's
>  > > true or beautiful to so
>  > > meone, somewhere, it must be truth or beauty. Right?
>  > >   >
>  > >   > Wrong. A "ready-made" bicycle wheel or toilet
>  > > found by Marcel Duchamp
>  > > simply cannot be considered alongside great works of
>  > > art, such as
>  > > Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel.
>  > >   >
>  > >   > And rap music cannot even be compared in the
>  > > same category as Bach's St.
>  > > Matthew Passion, Mozart's Marriage of Figaro, Porgy
>  > > and Bess, or Charlie
>  > > Parker's horn.
>  > >   >
>  > >   > I've always believed that black people are the
>  > > most musical on the
>  > > planet.  That they come up with this trash is an
>  > > awful commentary on the
>  > > state of ghetto culture--and the greedy corporations
>  > > that promote it.
>  > >   >
>  > >   > Eliott Kahn
>  > >   >
>  > >   >
>  > >   > At 10:12 AM 3/22/2004 -0500, Shirona wrote:
>  > >   > >  Some questions can never be answered..."Yes,
>  > > but is it ART"?
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >  As a frustrated art student in the 70's,
>  > > where it seemed like all
>  > > rules,
>  > >   > >standards of visual criteria or any sense of a
>  > > movement were
>  > >   > >abandoned...where in the wake of that
>  > > abandonment was the vacuum into
>  > > which
>  > >   > >all forms of BS were sucked in...unchallenged -
>  > > I got tired of asking
>  > > that
>  > >   > >question.  Art was reduced to "claim".  If you
>  > > put it in a museum and
>  > >   > >declared "this is ART" - then it was! (Of
>  > > course you needed lots of
>  > > confused
>  > >   > >suckers to back your claim).
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >  Perhaps every art-form needs to go through a
>  > > phase like that...like a
>  > >   > >natural disaster that causes death... and
>  > > re-birth (hopefully),  and
>  > > only
>  > >   > >time will tell.  If the so-called ART can
>  > > survive successive
>  > > generations who
>  > >   > >will "buy into" whatever it is and find value
>  > > in it - aesthetic,
>  > > musical,
>  > >   > >visual, intellectual...write books about it,
>  > > lecture about it, have
>  > > shows
>  > >   > >and concerts (and people will come and love it)
>  > > - then you probably
>  > > have
>  > >   > >ART.
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >  It's hard for me to imagine that rap would
>  > > earn such status in the
>  > >   > >future...but then I still can't believe it got
>  > > so big and popular in
>  > > the
>  > >   > >present, so what do I know?  Are we plunging
>  > > into a massive cultural
>  > >   > >dark-age period?  Maybe.  We know what
>  > > composers accomplished 50, 100,
>  > > 200,
>  > >   > >300 etc years ago...what do we have to show in
>  > > the present?  If rap
>  > >   > >generates more "business" than any other form
>  > > of music ( revenue, CD
>  > > sales,
>  > >   > >concert attendance) - does this mean that "this
>  > > is it" for our
>  > > generation,
>  > >   > >and this is how we will be judged in the
>  > > future? (Imagine a little bust
>  > >   > >portrait on a piano with Puff Daddy alongside
>  > > Mozart and Beethoven...or
>  > > a
>  > >   > >gallery in a museum dedicated to the "style" of
>  > > rap artists...their
>  > >   > >clothing, cultural milieu...their contribution
>  > > to world culture and
>  > >   > >enlightenment...  I dunno - it's too depressing
>  > > to think about it.  I'm
>  > >   > >going to listen to my classical music, or
>  > > Klezmer or good old fashioned
>  > > Rock
>  > >   > >'n roll and make believe everything is
>  > > cool...;-)
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >  Shirona
>  > >   > >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>  > > * * * * * * * * * *
>  > >   > >  Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish
>  > > Music
>  > >   > >     www.shirona.com
>  > >   > >     www.cdbaby.com/shirona
>  > >   > >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>  > > * * * * * * * * * *
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >  ----- Original Message -----
>  > >   > >  From: "Farfl's House" <farfl (at) idirect(dot)ca>
>  > >   > >  To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
>  > > <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>  > >   > >  Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 8:23 AM
>  > >   > >  Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My
>  > > Many Opinions!
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >  > In my sometimes-not-so-humble opinion, "rap
>  > > Artist" and "rap Music"
>  > > are
>  > >   > >  > oxymorons.  I prefer to side with the late
>  > > bassist John Entwhistle
>  > > who
>  > >   > >  > was of the opinion that rap was for those
>  > > that couldn't sing.  I'm
>  > > also
>  > >   > >  > of the opinion
>  > >   > >  > that drum machines are for demo tapes and
>  > > should be used as a
>  > > practicing
>  > >   > >  > tool only.  They have no place in recorded
>  > > music being released to
>  > > the
>  > >   > >  > public.
>  > >   > >  > Anyone can learn to program a drum machine
>  > > and a sequencer with a
>  > >   > >  > minimum of instruction.  Anyone can buy
>  > > Adidas gear and learn all
>  > > of the
>  > >   > >  > correct and approved  hand gestures from
>  > > their local 24-hour video
>  > >   > >  > channel.   This stagnant cliche "form of
>  > > expression" devolved out
>  > > of a
>  > >   > >  > rather interesting past time that took
>  > > place in basements in
>  > >   > >  > economically-depressed areas.  Kids were
>  > > using turntables to play
>  > > short
>  > >   > >  > *snippets* of records to form sound loops.
>  > >   > >  > Malcolm MacLaren had a hand in exposing it
>  > > to the public,  hoping
>  > > to
>  > >   > >  > make a profit from it.  Unfortunately, he
>  > > paved the way for such
>  > > things
>  > >   > >  > as "Puffed Wheat Daddy" or whatever his
>  > > name is speaking about
>  > > Godzilla
>  > >   > >  > over Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir".
>  > >   > >  > -Steven
>  > >   > >  >
>  > >   > >  >
>  > >   > >  >
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >
>  > >   > >
>  > >   >
>  > >   >
>  > >   >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>  > > ---------------------+
>  > >