Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many Opinions!

[Shirona <shirona...>]

  I'm not sure who on this list committed the sin of saying that rap isn't
art...I'm glad it wasn't me - because what followed is a serious "beating"
from the ranks of the "culturally correct".  Please make sure to read the
emails carefully!!  In my very first response to this thread I stated
clearly that I wasn't going to "go there" (defining what is or isn't art) -
and repeating the same list of arguments that question the process of
determining what is or isn't art gets to be tiresome....we've been there and
done that already.

  It's interesting to look at the similarities between the worlds of fine
art and music.  As I mentioned earlier it seemed to me that we came to a
dead-end in the world of fine art...these are just my personal observations.
We got to see empty canvasses, feces and urine as "legitimate" mediums
(wanna argue about that?)  12 feet genitals, "conceptual art" (the gallery
displayed little scribbles of ideas by very enlightened artists that saw no
purpose in actually "creating" their art) - shock for the sake of shocking
was getting pretty boring...especially when there was nothing behind the
"shock".  Those who love art and get a high from being face-to-face with a
real masterpiece will still go to a museum and visit...alas...dead white
(mostly) male artists. (Please...I'm a feminist...don't jump on my case for
this one!)

  But there are two big differences between the worlds of art and music,
albeit the common "de-evolution" in standards and the climate of "cultural
correctness" that legitimizes everything - regardless of how revolting:  Not
that much $$ in the art "avant guard" - and no one can say that "bad art"
influenced an entire generation of kids...  Music has so much power and
beauty and spirituality...and it hurts me when it is used as a conduit for
the lowest of human impulses - violence, pornography, hatred, contempt,
anger, hubris...I simply think that MUSIC deserves better companionship. For
those who like this music - (or like making excuses for it) - "labri'ut".
To your health! We all have the right to our opinions.

  Shirona
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music
     www.shirona.com
     www.cdbaby.com/shirona
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Rabbi Alana Suskin" <alanamscat (at) yahoo(dot)com>
  To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
  Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 1:06 PM
  Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many Opinions!


  > Shirona et al,
  >
  > There's a diference between saying, "I don't care for
  > rap" and saying "Rap isn't art."
  > What you're doing below is confusing those two things.
  > If I go around saying classical music isn't art, it's
  > the patriarchal and rather tiresome expression of dead
  > european white men, does that have any bearing on
  > whether the music is actually art or not, or is it
  > just me expressing my personal preferences as
  > authoritative?
  > People are welcome to *feel* about music of any kind
  > -any way they like, but that has nothing to do with
  > whether it's art or not.
  >
  > The reason I suggested reading articles about rap and
  > hip hop is because it's clear that many of the people
  > on this list who are criticising it don't know what it
  > is.
  > Rap is not simply black men singing -as you say, "I
  > want to f--- your little sister".
  > To the contrary, hip hop culture and artists -for
  > example KRS-One- come out of a tradition of
  > consciousness raising and questioning white culture
  > and authority, as well as self-improvement and
  > cultural uplift. The fact that the little bit of rap
  > you've heard has violent and ugly lyrics doesn't
  > account for the tradition it comes out of, nor its
  > purpose. And, in fact, even some of those violent and
  > ugly lyrics have their purpose. I don't have to like
  > them, myself, but a number of them come out of the
  > tradition of Malcom X saying that black men have the
  > right to defend themselves by owning guns. When he
  > said this ( and he didn't by the way, advocate going
  > aroun shooting people) white people went crazy,
  > because what they heard was that black people should
  > kill whites - but that's because whites were looking
  > at his words froma particular viewpoint. SImilarly,
  > those violent lyrics come out of a place where the
  > ghetto culture is repudiating being kept poor, and
  > looking at making money as a way out - which it is.
  > Just look at O.J. SImpson. Anyone think he wouldn't be
  > on death row if he hadn't made himself whiter through
  > having  a lot of money?
  >
  > But actually, a lot of that is besde the point anyway,
  > since shock value has often been a part of artistic
  > development (Mozart, for example....) on one side, and
  > onthe other, most hip hop is NOT violent and ugly. IN
  > fact Rap comes out of a tradition of oral poetry,
  > which then developed musical associations. It's not
  > particularly new, although gangsta rap is relatively
  > speaking a new outgrowth. And Hip Hop has been a
  > musical and cultural combination from its outset.
  >
  > Ultimately it strikes me that your argument is that
  > there needs to be a canon and an authority; The
  > problem is then, WHO is the authority that decides
  > what is art and what isn't?
  > I'm not prepared to trust just anyone - after all, a
  > quick look at statistics (see the Guerilla Girls
  > website for more details) show that women's art is
  > still hugely excluded from the canon, -that few women
  > are hung on museum walls, and not all that many
  > galleries hsow art by women. Do you really think that
  > means that those chosen men are artists, and the women
  > whose art didn't make it to those hallowed walls are
  > not? I certainly don't. And I don't trust coroprations
  > to make those decisions either - nor do I trust some
  > sort of elite, either. I think it's more complicated
  > than that, and ultimately too soon to tell.  Is folk
  > art art? Some kinds and not others? How about crafts?
  > Folk music? pottery? Quilting? SOme kinds of painting
  > but not others? watercolor isn't but oils are? What?
  > Time will give us a better notion than making
  > arbitrary decisions based upon what we personally
  > like. And the truth is probably that some things that
  > might be art will be left out, and some things that
  > ought not to be art might be left in . Or maybe not,
  > maybe art is just a completely fabricated notion to
  > give weight to some people's preferences over others.
  >
  > And I certainly don't think most of the pablum that we
  > hear on radio these days (and that includes, thank you
  > very much, most of what one hears on so-called indie
  > stations and shows as well) qualifies as anything
  > other than corporate salesmanship. I mean, does anyone
  > really think that the White Stripes are art? And I
  > don't particularly think that the Beatles are excluded
  > from this - I want to hold your hand? Come on.
  >
  > Alana
  >
  > --- Shirona <shirona (at) bellatlantic(dot)net> wrote:>
  > >I've heard
  > > and regurgitated all those arguments..."don't
  > > criticize what you can't
  > > understand".  It is precisely this fear (of being
  > > thought of as
  > > "unenlightened" or "unsophisticated" or just plain
  > > ignorant) that caused
  > > people to shut up and say nothing...and to end up
  > > not even knowing HOW they
  > > feel.  Cultural Entropy.
  > >
  > >   Read articles about hip-hop or rap...?  What for?
  > > To find out what I'm
  > > somehow "not getting"?  If there was anything
  > > attractive about it for me - I
  > > probably would, on my own, without having to be
  > > intimidated into doing so.
  > > I'm sorry - not everything is relative.  For me
  > > there is an "absolute"
  > > difference between lyrics that say "I want to hold
  > > your hand" (even if that
  > > was really, really "radical" back then...;-) and
  > > those who say "I want to
  > > f--- your little sister".  Female singers have
  > > morphed into soft-porn
  > > "artists".  (Gee - am I missing the "above my
  > > comprehension abilities"
  > > message in this "art-form"?
  > >
  > >   Folks - please re-read this story by Hans
  > > Christian Andersen
  > >
  > >   http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html
  > >
  > >   Maybe it's about us.
  > >
  > >   Shirona
  > >   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  > > * * * * * * * *
  > >   Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music
  > >      www.shirona.com
  > >      www.cdbaby.com/shirona
  > >   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  > > * * * * * * * *
  > >
  > >   ----- Original Message -----
  > >   From: "Eliott Kahn" <Elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
  > >   To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
  > > <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
  > >   Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:12 AM
  > >   Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many
  > > Opinions!
  > >
  > >
  > >   > Beautifully said!
  > >   >
  > >   > I'm afraid we've been living in times
  > > where--especially Academe--has a
  > > relativistic conception of truth and beauty. If it's
  > > true or beautiful to so
  > > meone, somewhere, it must be truth or beauty. Right?
  > >   >
  > >   > Wrong. A "ready-made" bicycle wheel or toilet
  > > found by Marcel Duchamp
  > > simply cannot be considered alongside great works of
  > > art, such as
  > > Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel.
  > >   >
  > >   > And rap music cannot even be compared in the
  > > same category as Bach's St.
  > > Matthew Passion, Mozart's Marriage of Figaro, Porgy
  > > and Bess, or Charlie
  > > Parker's horn.
  > >   >
  > >   > I've always believed that black people are the
  > > most musical on the
  > > planet.  That they come up with this trash is an
  > > awful commentary on the
  > > state of ghetto culture--and the greedy corporations
  > > that promote it.
  > >   >
  > >   > Eliott Kahn
  > >   >
  > >   >
  > >   > At 10:12 AM 3/22/2004 -0500, Shirona wrote:
  > >   > >  Some questions can never be answered..."Yes,
  > > but is it ART"?
  > >   > >
  > >   > >  As a frustrated art student in the 70's,
  > > where it seemed like all
  > > rules,
  > >   > >standards of visual criteria or any sense of a
  > > movement were
  > >   > >abandoned...where in the wake of that
  > > abandonment was the vacuum into
  > > which
  > >   > >all forms of BS were sucked in...unchallenged -
  > > I got tired of asking
  > > that
  > >   > >question.  Art was reduced to "claim".  If you
  > > put it in a museum and
  > >   > >declared "this is ART" - then it was! (Of
  > > course you needed lots of
  > > confused
  > >   > >suckers to back your claim).
  > >   > >
  > >   > >  Perhaps every art-form needs to go through a
  > > phase like that...like a
  > >   > >natural disaster that causes death... and
  > > re-birth (hopefully),  and
  > > only
  > >   > >time will tell.  If the so-called ART can
  > > survive successive
  > > generations who
  > >   > >will "buy into" whatever it is and find value
  > > in it - aesthetic,
  > > musical,
  > >   > >visual, intellectual...write books about it,
  > > lecture about it, have
  > > shows
  > >   > >and concerts (and people will come and love it)
  > > - then you probably
  > > have
  > >   > >ART.
  > >   > >
  > >   > >  It's hard for me to imagine that rap would
  > > earn such status in the
  > >   > >future...but then I still can't believe it got
  > > so big and popular in
  > > the
  > >   > >present, so what do I know?  Are we plunging
  > > into a massive cultural
  > >   > >dark-age period?  Maybe.  We know what
  > > composers accomplished 50, 100,
  > > 200,
  > >   > >300 etc years ago...what do we have to show in
  > > the present?  If rap
  > >   > >generates more "business" than any other form
  > > of music ( revenue, CD
  > > sales,
  > >   > >concert attendance) - does this mean that "this
  > > is it" for our
  > > generation,
  > >   > >and this is how we will be judged in the
  > > future? (Imagine a little bust
  > >   > >portrait on a piano with Puff Daddy alongside
  > > Mozart and Beethoven...or
  > > a
  > >   > >gallery in a museum dedicated to the "style" of
  > > rap artists...their
  > >   > >clothing, cultural milieu...their contribution
  > > to world culture and
  > >   > >enlightenment...  I dunno - it's too depressing
  > > to think about it.  I'm
  > >   > >going to listen to my classical music, or
  > > Klezmer or good old fashioned
  > > Rock
  > >   > >'n roll and make believe everything is
  > > cool...;-)
  > >   > >
  > >   > >  Shirona
  > >   > >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  > > * * * * * * * * * *
  > >   > >  Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish
  > > Music
  > >   > >     www.shirona.com
  > >   > >     www.cdbaby.com/shirona
  > >   > >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
  > > * * * * * * * * * *
  > >   > >
  > >   > >  ----- Original Message -----
  > >   > >  From: "Farfl's House" <farfl (at) idirect(dot)ca>
  > >   > >  To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
  > > <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
  > >   > >  Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 8:23 AM
  > >   > >  Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My
  > > Many Opinions!
  > >   > >
  > >   > >
  > >   > >  > In my sometimes-not-so-humble opinion, "rap
  > > Artist" and "rap Music"
  > > are
  > >   > >  > oxymorons.  I prefer to side with the late
  > > bassist John Entwhistle
  > > who
  > >   > >  > was of the opinion that rap was for those
  > > that couldn't sing.  I'm
  > > also
  > >   > >  > of the opinion
  > >   > >  > that drum machines are for demo tapes and
  > > should be used as a
  > > practicing
  > >   > >  > tool only.  They have no place in recorded
  > > music being released to
  > > the
  > >   > >  > public.
  > >   > >  > Anyone can learn to program a drum machine
  > > and a sequencer with a
  > >   > >  > minimum of instruction.  Anyone can buy
  > > Adidas gear and learn all
  > > of the
  > >   > >  > correct and approved  hand gestures from
  > > their local 24-hour video
  > >   > >  > channel.   This stagnant cliche "form of
  > > expression" devolved out
  > > of a
  > >   > >  > rather interesting past time that took
  > > place in basements in
  > >   > >  > economically-depressed areas.  Kids were
  > > using turntables to play
  > > short
  > >   > >  > *snippets* of records to form sound loops.
  > >   > >  > Malcolm MacLaren had a hand in exposing it
  > > to the public,  hoping
  > > to
  > >   > >  > make a profit from it.  Unfortunately, he
  > > paved the way for such
  > > things
  > >   > >  > as "Puffed Wheat Daddy" or whatever his
  > > name is speaking about
  > > Godzilla
  > >   > >  > over Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir".
  > >   > >  > -Steven
  > >   > >  >
  > >   > >  >
  > >   > >  >
  > >   > >
  > >   > >
  > >   > >
  > >   >
  > >   >
  > >   >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > ---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
  > > ---------------------+
  > >