"Kol (Isha)" citation REDUX

[Judith Pinnolis <pinnolis...>]

There is a good article on this subject, giving the entire halakic
arguments, and their origins...SO, even though you could all probably find
this citation online in the Jewish music list archives...  (from the last
time we went around and around on the topic),... I think it may be worth
mentioning for those people who want to read it, (or, grind their teeth, as
the case may be):

Berman, Saul, J., "Kol 'Isha", IN Landman, Leo, ed. "Rabbi Joseph H.
Lookstein Memorial Volume,
New York: Ktav, 1980.
pp. 45-66.
in English.

Judy P.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ms. Cat" <alanamscat (at) yahoo(dot)com>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: "Kol (Isha)"


> OK, I'll take up Ari's request for people who have not
> posted on the matter yet. First of all, although it's
> not uncommon in the Orthodox community to regard
> women's voices in general as problematic, in fact, the
> halacha is a bit more complicated than what has been
> presented on this list.
> In fact, the source for the prohibition of kol isha is
> talmud berachot 24a, in which Shmuel says "the voice
> of a woman is nakedness" (It should be noted that this
> section has other opinions that having anything to do
> with a woman is "nakedness" - it's a response to I
> think Rav Yitzchak (?) saying that even a tefach of a
> woman is nakedness. The back and forth of responses
> then makes quite clear what's actually being
> discussed:
> First the tefach is broadened - even looking at a
> woman's little finger is obscenity. Here is where the
> stam explains that what we're talking about is the
> situation of *one's wife and reciting the kriat shma*.
> Thighs and hair also are mentioned here.
> The rishonim comment in agreement with the opinion
> that what is being discussed is the recitation of
> kriat shma.
> Later commentators agree with this (some examples Rav
> Hai Gaon and Yehuda Gaon). Some tosafot disagree, and
> say that it's not abot kriat shma. THe Rosh and the
> Tur agree (that it isn't), and the Shulchan Aruch
> rules in accordance with them. However, the shulchan
> aruch in Orach Chaim (75:3) rules that "one should be
> careful" not to hear the voice of a woman during
> kerias shema. The implication being that the law is
> that one can but it is preferable to follow the other
> opinions as well and not to.
>
> Basically, it's quite clear that although the Shulchan
> Aruch and some major commentators rule that kol isha
> does not apply only to the recitation of kriat shma,
> since we don't rule thusly about hair, which is
> mentioned comparably, we can extrapolate that when one
> is used to hearing a woman's singing voice (and we
> live in a culture in which it would be rather
> difficult to avoid) it is not forbidden. And indeed,
> it's quite obvious that kol isha as a general
> prohibition is *clearly* a stringency, and not the
> halachah.
>
> OK, so what does this have to do with all the posts?
> Well, first of all, the prohibition of kol isha *even
> on halachically observant men* is not particularly
> clear cut. It seems quite possible that it's not that
> big a problem to have women singing, as long as they
> aren't attempting to recite kriat shma at the time. If
> it's time to recite the shma then they'd have to
> leave, it's true, but in any case, all the contentious
> back and forth about the rest of it - well, is
> uncertain at best.
> Since very few shows are scheduled to coincide with
> the morning and evening recitation (and the latter, in
> any case, could be said until really quite later than
> any show I've ever been to, other than, say frat
> parties or what have you) the whole argument is rather
> over the top. It's not about changing laws at all, so
> can we stop accusing this person and that person of
> various ignorances? Of course one cannot change the
> law - Judaism doesn't have a legislative system, we
> have a judicial system. Laws can't be changed becasue
> they're divine, but they are interpreted each
> generation according to the understanding of its
> judges - in agreement with the torah and talmud (not
> in  accordance with the shulchan aruch, which is by
> the way, nothing more exciting than an index of the
> beit yosef. it would be like using Klein as an
> ultimate source. A posek has to actually check the
> sources to make a decision - that is, torah and
> talmud).
> In any case, there is certainly no requirement for men
> to leave when they hear a woman singing in general, no
> basis for preventing women singing at public venues
> (as has, indeed, happened in the past in Israel), but
> hey, if someone wants to make a stringency for
> themselves, kol hakavod, get up and quietly leave.  NO
> one insists that I go listen to Michael Bolton
> concerts either - if I can't be tortured with music I
> don't want to hear, you have the same right. if you
> don't want to hear a woman's voice, so, nu, don't.
>
> Alana Suskin
>
> --- Marvin Margoshes <physchem (at) cloud9(dot)net> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Alex Jacobowitz" <alexbjacobowitz (at) yahoo(dot)com>
> > To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
> > <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 1:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: "Kol (Isha)"
> >
> >
> > > B"H Munich
> > >
> > > --- Eliott Kahn <Elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU> wrote:
>
> > > NOT that women should not sing. It´s
> > > about men not listening to it WHEN AND
> > > IF SHE SINGS. Got it?
>
> > > But before anyone sets him or herself up to be the
> > > Next Lawgiver, how about getting the Law right?
> > First?
> > > Or is that asking too much?
> > >
> > > There´s a positive mitzva (commandment!) not to
> > change
> > > the laws. Changing the laws would, therefore, be a
> > > sin. Misquoting a law goes even beyond that.
> > > Does it serve a tangible purpose except in helping
> > > someone make a dubious point?
> >
> > That is a real discussion stopper!  This law, and
> > others are man-made,
> > derived from the Torah.  Laws and customs do change.
> >  Institutions that
> > don't change don't last as long as Judaism has.
> >
> > >
> > > Alex Jacobowitz
> > >
>
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