Re: "Kol (Isha)"

[Ms. Cat <alanamscat...>]

OK, I'll take up Ari's request for people who have not
posted on the matter yet. First of all, although it's
not uncommon in the Orthodox community to regard
women's voices in general as problematic, in fact, the
halacha is a bit more complicated than what has been
presented on this list.
In fact, the source for the prohibition of kol isha is
talmud berachot 24a, in which Shmuel says "the voice
of a woman is nakedness" (It should be noted that this
section has other opinions that having anything to do
with a woman is "nakedness" - it's a response to I
think Rav Yitzchak (?) saying that even a tefach of a
woman is nakedness. The back and forth of responses
then makes quite clear what's actually being
discussed:
First the tefach is broadened - even looking at a
woman's little finger is obscenity. Here is where the
stam explains that what we're talking about is the
situation of *one's wife and reciting the kriat shma*.
Thighs and hair also are mentioned here.
The rishonim comment in agreement with the opinion
that what is being discussed is the recitation of
kriat shma.
Later commentators agree with this (some examples Rav
Hai Gaon and Yehuda Gaon). Some tosafot disagree, and
say that it's not abot kriat shma. THe Rosh and the
Tur agree (that it isn't), and the Shulchan Aruch
rules in accordance with them. However, the shulchan
aruch in Orach Chaim (75:3) rules that "one should be
careful" not to hear the voice of a woman during
kerias shema. The implication being that the law is
that one can but it is preferable to follow the other
opinions as well and not to.

Basically, it's quite clear that although the Shulchan
Aruch and some major commentators rule that kol isha
does not apply only to the recitation of kriat shma,
since we don't rule thusly about hair, which is
mentioned comparably, we can extrapolate that when one
is used to hearing a woman's singing voice (and we
live in a culture in which it would be rather
difficult to avoid) it is not forbidden. And indeed,
it's quite obvious that kol isha as a general
prohibition is *clearly* a stringency, and not the
halachah.

OK, so what does this have to do with all the posts?
Well, first of all, the prohibition of kol isha *even
on halachically observant men* is not particularly
clear cut. It seems quite possible that it's not that
big a problem to have women singing, as long as they
aren't attempting to recite kriat shma at the time. If
it's time to recite the shma then they'd have to
leave, it's true, but in any case, all the contentious
back and forth about the rest of it - well, is
uncertain at best. 
Since very few shows are scheduled to coincide with
the morning and evening recitation (and the latter, in
any case, could be said until really quite later than
any show I've ever been to, other than, say frat
parties or what have you) the whole argument is rather
over the top. It's not about changing laws at all, so
can we stop accusing this person and that person of
various ignorances? Of course one cannot change the
law - Judaism doesn't have a legislative system, we
have a judicial system. Laws can't be changed becasue
they're divine, but they are interpreted each
generation according to the understanding of its
judges - in agreement with the torah and talmud (not
in  accordance with the shulchan aruch, which is by
the way, nothing more exciting than an index of the
beit yosef. it would be like using Klein as an
ultimate source. A posek has to actually check the
sources to make a decision - that is, torah and
talmud). 
In any case, there is certainly no requirement for men
to leave when they hear a woman singing in general, no
basis for preventing women singing at public venues
(as has, indeed, happened in the past in Israel), but
hey, if someone wants to make a stringency for
themselves, kol hakavod, get up and quietly leave.  NO
one insists that I go listen to Michael Bolton
concerts either - if I can't be tortured with music I
don't want to hear, you have the same right. if you
don't want to hear a woman's voice, so, nu, don't.

Alana Suskin

--- Marvin Margoshes <physchem (at) cloud9(dot)net> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alex Jacobowitz" <alexbjacobowitz (at) yahoo(dot)com>
> To: "World music from a Jewish slant"
> <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: "Kol (Isha)"
> 
> 
> > B"H Munich
> >
> > --- Eliott Kahn <Elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU> wrote:

> > NOT that women should not sing. It´s
> > about men not listening to it WHEN AND
> > IF SHE SINGS. Got it?

> > But before anyone sets him or herself up to be the
> > Next Lawgiver, how about getting the Law right?
> First?
> > Or is that asking too much?
> >
> > There´s a positive mitzva (commandment!) not to
> change
> > the laws. Changing the laws would, therefore, be a
> > sin. Misquoting a law goes even beyond that.
> > Does it serve a tangible purpose except in helping
> > someone make a dubious point?
> 
> That is a real discussion stopper!  This law, and
> others are man-made,
> derived from the Torah.  Laws and customs do change.
>  Institutions that
> don't change don't last as long as Judaism has.
> 
> >
> > Alex Jacobowitz
> >

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