Re: Re[2]: Cross-fertilization of Jewish and non-Jewish music

[robert wiener <wiener...>]

And I thought I had an OK library!

Thanks Elliot and Judy for making me (us?) aware of the treasures out
there.

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Fertig <fertig (at) brandeis(dot)edu>
To: World music from a Jewish slant. <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Cross-fertilization of Jewish and non-Jewish music


>Bob:
>Here's my $.02......
>Speaking of reprint books:
>Did anyone mention Albert Weisser's Modern Renaissance of Jewish
Music?
>
>Other books:
>A "must have" for those who study synagogue music: I especially like
Amnon
>Shiloah's Jewish Musical Traditions and Joseph Levine's Synagogue
Song in
>America.
>
>And no one mentioned Mark Slobin's Chosen Voices? It's really a
wonderful
>read as well as a good history of the cantorate in America. Its full
of
>colorful anecdotes and quotes from sources of the day giving a zesty
and
>often amusing picture of early Jewish life in America.
>
>And the awesome book by Macy Nulman: Concepts of Jewish Music and
Prayer.
>(out of print?-- does anyone have a copy of this available?)
>Hanoch Avernary's Ashkenazy Tradition of Biblical Chant Between
1500-1900
>(out of print)
>Does anyone know of a copy of Off the Willows by Abraham Soltes?
>
>The Peter Gradenwitz, The Music of Israel is a revised and expanded
version
>of the previous book. It's good to have the newer edition even if you
>already have the older version.
>Judy.
>
>
>
>
>At 11:02 AM 12/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Elliot,
>>
>>Thanks for the list of suggested books.
>>
>>According to amazon.com, the Werner is out of print, while the Fromm
>>may be available.
>>
>>Is the Idelsohn, A.Z.: Jewish Music... an actual 3rd edition or only
a
>>3rd printing of the original additon?
>>
>>I ask because amazon.com lists it as a reprint edition (July 1992)
of
>>535 pages, and my Schocken copy (a Second Printing, 1972) is also
535
>>pages.
>>
>>Bob
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU <elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
>>To: World music from a Jewish slant. <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>Cc: elkahn <elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
>>Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:19 AM
>>Subject: Re: Re[2]: Cross-fertilization of Jewish and non-Jewish
music
>>
>>
>>>May I suggest the following books for a solid grounding in the
>>history,
>>>aesthetics and musical language of Jewish music?
>>>
>>>Idelsohn, A.Z. Jewish music in its historical development, 3rd
>>edition,
>>>NY: Dover, 1992.
>>>
>>>Gradenwitz, Peter. The music of Israel, 2nd edition, Portland:
>>Amadeus
>>>Press, 1996. (Don't use the first edition)
>>>
>>>Werner, Eric. A voice still heard: the sacred songs of the
Ashkenazic
>>>Jews, University Park: Penn. State Press, 1976.
>>>
>>>Heskes, Irene. Passport to Jewish music, Westport, Conn.: Greenwood
>>Press,
>>>1994.
>>>
>>>Some excellent out of print sources which we have at the Library of
>>the
>>>Jewish Theological Seminary:
>>>
>>>Fromm, Herbert. On Jewish Music: a composer's view, NY: Bloch,
1978.
>>>
>>>Rothmueller, Aaron-Marko. The music of the Jews: an historical
>>>appreciation, South Brunswick: T. Tosseloff, 1967.
>>>
>>>Saminsky, Lazare. Music of the ghetto and the bible, NY: Bloch,
1934.
>>>
>>>I can't recommend the Saminsky or the Fromm book highly enough for
>>those
>>>of you interested in what constitutes "Jewish Music." This is a
very
>>old
>>>discussion that dates back -- in our time, anyway -- to the turn of
>>the
>>>century.
>>>
>>>I am not familiar with Mark Slobin's TENEMENT SONGS, but this also
>>might
>>>be a valuable resource for the study of American Yiddish Theatre
>>music.
>>>
>>>The Nulman ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JEWISH MUSIC has its value as a general
>>>reference but -- be forewarned -- it did not receive kind reviews
>>from
>>>Jewish musicologists when it first appeared.
>>>
>>>Hope this is helpful,
>>>
>>>Eliott Kahn
>>>Music Archivist
>>>Library of the Jewish Theological Seminary
>>>3080 Broadway
>>>New York, NY 10027
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, robert wiener wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been on the lookout for Jewish Music books over the years,
so
>>I
>>>> have both Idelsohn books and Nulman's Concise Encyclopedia of
>>Jewish
>>>> Music.  What other books are considered good for a library on the
>>>> topic above in particular (and Jewish music in general)?
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com <richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com>
>>>> To: World music from a Jewish slant. <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>>> Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 5:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re[2]: Cross-fertilization of Jewish and non-Jewish
music
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >My understanding is that Idelsohn's 2 books, Jewish Music and
>>Jewish
>>>> Liturgy are
>>>> >basic texts.
>>>> >
>>>> >Cantor Macy Nulman, indirectly a mentor of mine, has several
books
>>on
>>>> the
>>>> >subject, too.
>>>> >
>>>> >Regards,
>>>> >Rich Wolpoe
>>>> >
>>>> >______________________________ Reply Separator
>>>> _________________________________
>>>> >Subject: Re: Cross-fertilization of Jewish and non-Jewish music
>>>> >Author:  <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org> at Tcpgate
>>>> >Date:    12/28/98 1:09 PM
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >Richard,
>>>> >
>>>> >Idelsohn has a chapter "Song of the Synagogue" in Jewish Music.
>>I've
>>>> >also heard that Eric Werner is good to read on the relationship
>>>> >between Jewish and Christian music, but I don't have any of his
>>books
>>>> >yet.  Should I?
>>>> >
>>>> >I believe that I've also heard the "Maoz Tsur" melody used in a
>>>> record
>>>> >of a seder from Northern Africa (perhaps Fez, Morrocco).  I wish
I
>>>> >knew how it got there.  It's fascinating how these tunes can
>>travel.
>>>> >
>>>> >Bob
>>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com <richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com>
>>>> >To: World music from a Jewish slant. <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>>> >Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 11:52 AM
>>>> >Subject: Re: Cross-fertilization of Jewish and non-Jewish music
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>I believe Idelson discusses the origins of Jewish liturgical
>>music.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Just as a general rule, it is often the case that the jewish
>>litrugy
>>>> >aand the
>>>> >>Xtian liturgy BOTH adapted from common folk melodies rather
than
>>>> >directly from
>>>> >>each other.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>EG the traditional Maoz Tsur melody is also used as a Lutheran
>>hymn.
>>>> >The most
>>>> >>likely explanation is that both Jews and Lutherans adapted
their
>>>> >respective
>>>> >>meoldies from a popular German marching song, rahter than from
>>one
>>>> >another.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Regards,
>>>> >>Rich Wolpoe
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>______________________________ Reply Separator
>>>> >_________________________________
>>>> >>Subject: Cross-fertilization of Jewish and non-Jewish music
>>>> >>Author:  <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org> at Tcpgate
>>>> >>Date:    12/27/98 5:39 PM
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Is there any material (e.g., books, articles, dissertations,
>>>> >>discographies) on Jewish musical themes in classical music,
>>>> >especially
>>>> >>the less obvious compositions?  I do think that I saw something
>>in
>>>> >the
>>>> >>Jewish Theological Seminary collection of dissertations from
the
>>>> >>Cantorial School, but it was basically on the more obvious
>>>> >>copositions, e.g., Bloch.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>I would also be especially interested in material on the use of
>>>> >>non-Jewish themes, popular or classical, in Jewish liturgical
>>music
>>>> >>(besides the Aleinu tunes and Adon Olam settings to popular
>>song).
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Bob
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>