Re: Re[4]: Itsy Bitsy Spider and other Liturgucal Themes

[Solidarity Foundation <svzandt...>]

Dear Rich Wolpoe,      
        Thank you for your eloquent reply. Your perspective as baal tfile
in a specific congregation adds another dimension. I was just speaking from
my personal feeling and experience.

You write:
I don't like to see things that have been "sanctified", (albeit in error) get 
blasted unless absolutely necessary.  Why should people who have sincerecly 
sung Oleinu a certain way for decades,  suddenly be shocked to find out that 
tjey've been singing a nurery sone all along!  I think a lot of the 
old-timers in my congregation would either get angry or depressed over that 
revelation.  Azoy ich bin melamed zchus re: what has already happened and I 
look for the most lofty explanation, where possible.

I-L: Right.

R.W: Lechatchilo, I agree with you. 

I-L: That's why, if you have a choice, this question is especially important
with respect to the children.

R.W: Now my congreagtion is very much Western. Therefore I have no 
hseitation adding more Western or even Chassidic marhces becasue they blend 
into our shul's establsihed minhogim. 

I-L: That's their tradition.

R.W: Also, I am not oppose to Westernizing the davening per se.  I think 
Western 
liturgy is no less kosher than  Eastern. EG, alot of Chassidc music is 
attributed to Napoleon's marches as he invaded Eastern Europe.  Chassisdim 
felt it was OK to adapt those marches to the liturgy.

I-L: The Gerer Chassidim especially, if I'm not mistaken.

R.W.:         And as an Orthodox congregation, we have adapted numerous reform 
melodies.  And, as  I've mentioned that I use Handel's Oratorio from Judas 
Maccabeus during daving on Shabbos Chanukah.  I am satisfied that it is 
both musically appopriate to our shul, and liturgically appropos since the 
meodly concerns yehuda haMakkabee.  I admit not everyone would agree.

I-L: I agree very much with what Lori Lippitz said, but that is because we
are coming at it from the perspective of Russian, Polish or Romanian Jews
who are reacting to encroaching Westernization or Americanization. To those
who find this nusakh "depressing", all I can say is, I'm sorry you can't
appreciate it. 

Incidentally, just to open up another can of worms, a lot of people from
this tradition aren't crazy about the use of Sephardic pronunciation, either.

(I mean in nusakh ashkenaz, of course.)

R.W.: I do 
concede that the matter is not to be taken lightly; that there should be 
consideration and deference before using a melody and not just to use it 
willy nilly.  Ober, unzere yidden will always debate isues such as what is 
approriate and what is not.

I-L: Well, whatever our tradition and whatever our personal taste, I would
think that most people on this List, anyway, would agree that sound is very
important in Jewish worship and culture. In traditional eastern European
culture, there seems to be no definite line between music and speech, and
practically everything, including the Yiddish language itself, has a nign.

Itzik-Leyb