Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many Opinions!

[Ron Caswell <ron...>]

Bumbaclot mon.  Let's see if anyone figures that out.  Well said.  I did a gig 
with Frank London a couple of months ago with Aaron Bisman on turntables and DJ 
So Called (Josh Dolgin) on accordian and sampler.  They sampled not only 
Hip-Hop beats but Klezmer and cantors as well.  It was great and it was a very 
creative moment.  I'm not here to toot the horn of Frank London, but here is a 
true innovator in music.  He took  elements of different cultures and allowed 
electronics to be a part of the performance.  And yes, Aaron Alexander still 
played drums!  So this whole thread about rap/hip-hop being crap is just 
absurd.  Here are some great and talented musicians listening and using the 
tools at their disposal.  Just as there is good classical music and bad 
classical music there is good and bad rap.  In general, learn the difference 
between good and bad.  For those of you who have been living under a rock for 
the last 25 years I suggest you go back under it.  I think Roni makes great
 points and we should just drop the subject.  Sorry I asked.

 
Rmsarig (at) aol(dot)com wrote:
An interesting discussion, one that I was prepared to stay out of, despite the 
fact that I might be the person on the list most connected to rap/hip-hop (in 
addition to writing books like The Jewish Family Fun Book, I write about 
hip-hop for Rolling Stone and Vibe magazines -- don't ask). Now that I seem to 
be the only one to NOT put my two cents in, I feel compelled.
Obviously, I think hip-hop deserves attention, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted 
the years I've put into paying attention to it. (By the way, "rap" is what 
people do when they recite rhymes in rhythm; "hip-hop" is the name of a set of 
cultural practices that includes rapping, turntable scratching, breakdancing, 
graffiti, etc.; "hip-hop music" is the style of music that combines rapping 
with turntable scratching and other musical elements)
But is it music? Probably, based on the fact that there is melody (granted, 
less than European forms that place an emphasis on melody) and tons of rhythm 
(generally far more complex than European forms). But, really, who cares? We 
don't define a cultural practice and then look to see what fits into the 
definition -- that's backward. We look at what's out there that people are 
doing and responding to, and then we figure out what to call it later. So if 
you want to say that it's not music, fine. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just 
something else -- a hybrid that doesn't quite fit easily into previously 
defined demarcations (say, between music, poetry, rhetoric and oration). So 
that just means we need to come up with a new term and a new understanding for 
it, that's all, not to deny it's legitimacy. It's beyond obvious that hip-hop 
is a legitimate cultural expression (is there such a thing as an illegitimate 
cultural expression?). Just the sheer number of its fans will tell you that.
Sure, much of what passes as hip-hop in the commercial marketplace is 
problematic in its glorification of anti-social activities. But 1) that's by no 
means all there is to hip-hop, and 2) even if that was all there is to hip-hop, 
that would not de-legitimize it. Hip-hop's dark side is just that, and I have 
no intention of apologizing for it. The bad stuff is just bad. And the 
pathologies it flaunts are real issues for people to look at rather than 
dismiss. If you'd rather not, that's fine. But you can't deny it's connection 
with millions and millions of human beings on this planet.
As to the practice of sampling that someone brought up: To me, it's completely 
legitimate. Granted, it can violate some sensible copyright laws, but on an 
aesthetic level, how is borrowed a riff or chord structure any different from 
what folk musicians have done for millennia? Again, just because it doesn't fit 
neatly within the set of aesthetics we have developed for ourselves doesn't 
mean it's not legitimate. It's time to forge new aesthetic understandings.

But is it art? Not going there -- too big a waste of time. For those who have 
figured out exactly where the lines are drawn between what's art and what's 
not, congratulations. The view inside the box you've sealed yourself in must be 
quite blissful. 
I have to say, I thought this question about hip-hop and art had been settled a 
few decades ago. I sort of feel like I'm in a time warp to 1989.
Respectfully,
Roni


with "bad art" - but with the hijacking of true and sincere judgment...
People are made to feel "insecure" about their gut feelings regarding art or
music by those who profess to be "more enlightened than thou". I've heard
and regurgitated all those arguments..."don't criticize what you can't
understand".  It is precisely this fear (of being thought of as
"unenlightened" or "unsophisticated" or just plain ignorant) that caused
people to shut up and say nothing...and to end up not even knowing HOW they
feel.  Cultural Entropy.

Read articles about hip-hop or rap...?  What for?  To find out what I'm
somehow "not getting"?  If there was anything attractive about it for me - I
probably would, on my own, without having to be intimidated into doing so.
I'm sorry - not everything is relative.  For me there is an "absolute"
difference between lyrics that say "I want to hold your hand" (even if that
was really, really "radical" back then...;-) and those who say "I want to
f--- your little sister".  Female singers have morphed into soft-porn
"artists".  (Gee - am I missing the "above my comprehension abilities"
message in this "art-form"?

Folks - please re-read this story by Hans Christian Andersen

http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html

Maybe it's about us.

Shirona
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music
   www.shirona.com
   www.cdbaby.com/shirona
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eliott Kahn" <Elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many Opinions!


>Beautifully said!
>
>I'm afraid we've been living in times where--especially Academe--has a
relativistic conception of truth and beauty. If it's true or beautiful to so
meone, somewhere, it must be truth or beauty. Right?
>
>Wrong. A "ready-made" bicycle wheel or toilet found by Marcel Duchamp
simply cannot be considered alongside great works of art, such as
Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel.
>
>And rap music cannot even be compared in the same category as Bach's St.
Matthew Passion, Mozart's Marriage of Figaro, Porgy and Bess, or Charlie
Parker's horn.
>
>I've always believed that black people are the most musical on the
planet.  That they come up with this trash is an awful commentary on the
state of ghetto culture--and the greedy corporations that promote it.
>
>Eliott Kahn
>
>
>At 10:12 AM 3/22/2004 -0500, Shirona wrote:
>> Some questions can never be answered..."Yes, but is it ART"?
>>
>> As a frustrated art student in the 70's, where it seemed like all
rules,
>>standards of visual criteria or any sense of a movement were
>>abandoned...where in the wake of that abandonment was the vacuum into
which
>>all forms of BS were sucked in...unchallenged - I got tired of asking
that
>>question.  Art was reduced to "claim".  If you put it in a museum and
>>declared "this is ART" - then it was! (Of course you needed lots of
confused
>>suckers to back your claim).
>>
>> Perhaps every art-form needs to go through a phase like that...like a
>>natural disaster that causes death... and re-birth (hopefully),  and
only
>>time will tell.  If the so-called ART can survive successive
generations who
>>will "buy into" whatever it is and find value in it - aesthetic,
musical,
>>visual, intellectual...write books about it, lecture about it, have
shows
>>and concerts (and people will come and love it) - then you probably
have
>>ART.
>>
>> It's hard for me to imagine that rap would earn such status in the
>>future...but then I still can't believe it got so big and popular in
the
>>present, so what do I know?  Are we plunging into a massive cultural
>>dark-age period?  Maybe.  We know what composers accomplished 50, 100,
200,
>>300 etc years ago...what do we have to show in the present?  If rap
>>generates more "business" than any other form of music ( revenue, CD
sales,
>>concert attendance) - does this mean that "this is it" for our
generation,
>>and this is how we will be judged in the future? (Imagine a little bust
>>portrait on a piano with Puff Daddy alongside Mozart and Beethoven...or
a
>>gallery in a museum dedicated to the "style" of rap artists...their
>>clothing, cultural milieu...their contribution to world culture and
>>enlightenment...  I dunno - it's too depressing to think about it.  I'm
>>going to listen to my classical music, or Klezmer or good old fashioned
Rock
>>'n roll and make believe everything is cool...;-)
>>
>> Shirona
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>> Singer, Songwriter and Teacher of Jewish Music
>>   www.shirona.com
>>   www.cdbaby.com/shirona
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Farfl's House" <farfl (at) idirect(dot)ca>
>> To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 8:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: cRAP, Jewish or Otherwise - My Many Opinions!
>>
>>
>> >In my sometimes-not-so-humble opinion, "rap Artist" and "rap Music"
are
>> >oxymorons.  I prefer to side with the late bassist John Entwhistle
who
>> >was of the opinion that rap was for those that couldn't sing.  I'm
also
>> >of the opinion
>> >that drum machines are for demo tapes and should be used as a
practicing
>> >tool only.  They have no place in recorded music being released to
the
>> >public.
>> >Anyone can learn to program a drum machine and a sequencer with a
>> >minimum of instruction.  Anyone can buy Adidas gear and learn all
of the
>> >correct and approved  hand gestures from  their local 24-hour video
>> >channel.   This stagnant cliche "form of expression" devolved out
of a
>> >rather interesting past time that took place in basements in
>> >economically-depressed areas.  Kids were using turntables to play
short
>> >*snippets* of records to form sound loops.
>> >Malcolm MacLaren had a hand in exposing it to the public,  hoping
to
>> >make a profit from it.  Unfortunately, he paved the way for such
things
>> >as "Puffed Wheat Daddy" or whatever his name is speaking about
Godzilla
>> >over Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir".
>> >-Steven
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>







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