Re:Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture

[apikoyros <apikoyros...>]

Lori,
Thanks. For my part, in the first place, I was hoping that Michel (who also 
signs himself as Michal) had made typing errors in transcribing at least some 
of that line of lyrics. In an earlier post, I made a point of saying that he 
probably meant well. His repost of it with a translation but no corrections 
confirmed what I had feared, unfortunately. 

A technical note: He mistranslated the Yiddish word 'aynsteyn' in the original 
song to mean the same as the German word "Einstehen" which has a flavor of 
'entering' and 'settling in' (in the sense that Thomas Friedman doesn't like).  
The cognate Yiddish word 'aynsteyn,' in the context of the song, as I said, 
evokes a flavor of being settled and secure. That's only a nuance, perhaps, but 
it is relevant to the fit as well as the language of his change in lyrics.
 
I am not even criticizing Michel's desire to express his view at a Klezmer 
concert that Jews and Palestinians should find peace, only that this
view needs to be injected into this traditional and
simple Hasidic song in this way. Political statements can be successfully 
introduced into traditional material; If we look at the Klezmatics' repertoire, 
there are some excellent examples (as well as one or two that I felt uneasy 
about). In this case, I don't feel the political statement was done 
thoughtfully with regard for the material. I don't think, it belongs there. 
Michel should, of course, be free to write and perform anything to express 
himself, including that view, in Yiddish, if his Yiddish is up to it, or in 
French, German, or any other language, if it is not.

My point about Yiddish is that his lyrics were German or very broken Yiddish. 
Yiddish is a language with a "chip on its shoulder" (another Americanism), 
having been disparaged by everyone,
German, Jewish maskilim, Hebraists, etc. I don't think it is too much to ask 
that Yiddish be correct Yiddish and not just any hodge-podge someone with some 
recollections of a few words from their (grand)parents might use. Even mistakes 
would be excusable if there is evidence of at least some effort made. 

Please reread what I wrote. I may have been 
unforgiving after repeatedly reading those lyrics without corrections, but I, 
at least, tried to take
the matter seriously. I seem to be the only one who noticed or cared enough to 
call those mistakes in his lyrics (which he seems to be so proud of) to his 
attention. I am not looking for a job as his Yiddish lyricist.  

As for 'ma yofis,' that can be looked up in Henry
Sapoznik's book among other places. It refers to the historical phenomenon of 
Klezmorim giving their goyish audiences caricatures of Jewishness at the 
expense of their own dignity. (I know the lyrics Dick mentioned, they're funny, 
but irrelevant here.) 

Lee

---------- Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org> writes:

Look, here's the issue as I see it.  If you are angered by something,
step back and compose an answer that will be less likely to hurt
someone.  Discuss the individual points of contention rationally.  If
you can't do that, either send privately or don't send it at all.

Let us keep in mind the common goal of tikkun olam.

mit frayndshaft,
Lorele


HG wrote:

> First of all, from what I understand, the one who suggested the
> translation was Michal and not Michel (notice the A and not E).One of
> the beautiful aspects of Yiddish is its flexibility - even at the
> times Yiddish was a spoken language (more than now) among European
> Jews, there was a difference between the German/Austrian and East
> European Yiddish. And then as the Jews imigrated to the States, they
> adopted American words.The beauty of it is its flexibility - it is
> like an open minded language, based on feelings, emotions and social
> connection. And anyway Yiddisch is originally written in Hebrew
> letters, so any transliteration is not always exact (take the word
> "Yiddish" itself. In German it is "Jiddisch" - so what is
> correct?)Hadass----- Original Message -----
>
>      From: Dick Rosenberg
>      To: World music from a Jewish slant
>      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:11 PM
>      Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing
>      the culture
>       I'm somewhat at a loss to understand exactly what it is
>      that you're offended about. Are you offended that Michel
>      didn't express his sentiments in gramatically correct
>      Yiddish? Then suggest a better phrasing. Are you offended
>      that he changed the message of the words from what one hopes
>      will be when the Moshiakh comes to his hopes that Israelis
>      and Palestinians will one day live in peace? Isn't that part
>      of the folk process? I haven't seen anybody getting offended
>      about what the Klezmatics added to ale brider expressing
>      their sentiments. I believe here in America we call that
>      respect and understanding for those who have a different
>      opinion or outlook than us. And finally, I don't understand
>      the "ma yofis" comment at all. The way I understand the song
>      it means "You think you're such a hotshot. Your (father,
>      cousin, I forget what) greases wheels. Your sister goes with
>      sailors..." What does this have to do with Michel's wish for
>      peace in Israel? Dick Rosenberg
>
>           ----- Original Message -----
>           From: Leopold N Friedman
>           To: World music from a Jewish slant
>           Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:46 AM
>           Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without
>           knowing the culture
>            Michel,Maybe that's what you meant to say. In
>           your attempt to be clever withoutdoing your
>           homework, you've done violence to a fairly
>           polished traditionalwork. I am offended that you
>           just carelessly mistranslated from German,thinking
>           that would be good enough. (e.g., 'ir'n' and
>           that's only the firstmistake; I don't know what or
>           who 'palestinenish' or 'sholen' is, etc.)Maybe few
>           in your audience actually know any Yiddish and
>           haven't noticedor cared enough to call your
>           mistakes to your attention if you yourself
>           haven'tcared enough to express those words
>           correctly. Yiddish material should not be made
>           into a meta-code, puzzle, or joke forthe amusement
>           of German (or even Hebrew) speakers, with
>           reversions to"real" languages when serious points
>           are to be made. Would you changea song in German
>           or French (or Arabic) or even any language you
>           know wellwithout getting confirmation that your
>           changes were, at least linguistically,correct and
>           valid? Mistakes that might be forgiveable in the
>           haste of everydayspeech should not be preserved in
>           a performance, if you take that seriously.Yiddish
>           material deserves just the same care and respect,
>           or perhaps evenmore, because it's threatened, as
>           any other. Otherwise, it's mockery. Thematically,
>           Shnirele Perele is about 'moshiakh's tsaytn'
>           (Messiah's times)
>           and uses Jewish religious and messianic imagery.
>           To inject explicit politicalimagery in the form of
>           a Palestinian "hot button" into this song is to
>           change itto tutti frutti. The concept that you've
>           replaced, that the "yidn veln in erets
>           yisroelaynshteyn," appears to have been
>           misunderstood. This religious concept, in
>           fact,predates any concept of a Palestinian people
>           or even the political Zionism thatestablished the
>           state of Israel.  Additionally, 'aynsteyn' has
>           connotations of being(settled) secure and not of
>           "returning." The song asserts that Jews have never
>           left,in the theological sense. Without being aware
>           of that, wouldn't it be presumptuousto proceed to
>           try to "improve" that lyric? Finally, 'ma yofis'
>           (my original succinct comment) has connotations
>           of  "shuckin"and "jivin" for the goyim. Sorry,
>           those are "Americanisms," which may have to
>           belooked up.Lee On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:20:48 +0100
>           "Michel Borzykowski" <borzykowski (at) infomaniak(dot)ch>
>           writes:
>
>
>
>                     ----- Original Message -----
>                     "...weln di yidn in erets
>                     isroel aynsteyn" means:
>                     The Jews will return to the
>                     land of Israel.
>                     and "... weln di yidn in erets
>                     isroel mit ir'n
>                     palestinenishen brider kol sof
>                     in sholen lebn"
>                     The Jews will finally live in
>                     peace in the land of israel
>                     with their Palestinian
>                     brothers.
>                     Michal
>
>
>




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