Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture

[Lionel Mrocki <amrocks...>]

To quote Oscar Wilde (the Monty Python version!):
"I wish I had said that!"

IMHO what this world could really benefit from now more than ever, is
concsiously practiced tolerance to- and embracing of- our fellow humans, fairly
administered justice where its warranted, and dedication to the protection and
safety of those who are innocent and vulnerable.

I also note that this list invariably engages into more heated discussion
whenever the discussion strays from Jewish Music.  (Remember the photos of the
anti-zionist chassidim, the debate on Kol Isha, fusses over trial websites,
who's saying what about about people missing or not post Sept 11...)

Sure Yiddish language, linguistics and grammar are tightly linked to jewish
music, and in an ideal world, we'd all even speak (record) our own first
languages according to some standardised set of rules.  Perhaps a list on
Yiddish dialects and grammar is warranted?  It is a valid focus for discussion.

But languages do evolve, borrow, break down grammatical rules as time
progresses.... Oh yes, and people make mistakes. Most importantly, we need every
yiddish participant who's willing to have a go.  And if we observe someone with
good intentions who might welcome some teaching or support, offer it
genuinely....  for tikun olam

Lionel.

Trudi Goodman wrote:

>    Chaverim:
>   Enough already please.....
> >From what I understand, and this comes from one of the "horse's" mouths Mr.
> Aaron Lansky, at the Yiddish Book Center....there are approximately 6 main
> dialects of Yiddish and 12 subdialects. Since some of us are not "native"
> Yiddish speakers, but may know parts or bits of Yiddish...can this not
> become a "pissing" contest about whose the best Yeshiva Bocher?  Many of the
> people on this list are in the process of learning Yiddish...myself
> included, since my Yiddish is more Deitmarish than anything else.
> Generousity should always be the first gift of the more knowledgeable. If
> there is a "correction" needed, please let's try and offer it with heymish
> behavior and not "I know better than you do" hochtisher(now there's a
> Deitmarish word for ya!) ...high and mighty... behavior. Not all of us had
> the luck and the priviledge of a good Hebrew or Yiddish education.
>       Love and Knishes,
>       Trudi the G
>
> >From: "HG" <tsayeret (at) yahoo(dot)com>
> >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> >Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture
> >Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:34:42 +0100
> >
> >First of all, from what I understand, the one who suggested the translation
> >was Michal and not Michel (notice the A and not E).
> >One of the beautiful aspects of Yiddish is its flexibility - even at the
> >times Yiddish was a spoken language (more than now) among European Jews,
> >there was a difference between the German/Austrian and East European
> >Yiddish. And then as the Jews imigrated to the States, they adopted
> >American words.
> >The beauty of it is its flexibility - it is like an open minded language,
> >based on feelings, emotions and social connection. And anyway Yiddisch is
> >originally written in Hebrew letters, so any transliteration is not always
> >exact (take the word "Yiddish" itself. In German it is "Jiddisch" - so what
> >is correct?)
> >Hadass
> >----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Dick Rosenberg
> >   To: World music from a Jewish slant
> >   Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:11 PM
> >   Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture
> >
> >
> >   I'm somewhat at a loss to understand exactly what it is that you're
> >offended about.
> >
> >   Are you offended that Michel didn't express his sentiments in
> >gramatically correct Yiddish? Then suggest a better phrasing.
> >
> >   Are you offended that he changed the message of the words from what one
> >hopes will be when the Moshiakh comes to his hopes that Israelis and
> >Palestinians will one day live in peace? Isn't that part of the folk
> >process? I haven't seen anybody getting offended about what the Klezmatics
> >added to ale brider expressing their sentiments. I believe here in America
> >we call that respect and understanding for those who have a different
> >opinion or outlook than us.
> >
> >   And finally, I don't understand the "ma yofis" comment at all. The way I
> >understand the song it means "You think you're such a hotshot. Your
> >(father, cousin, I forget what) greases wheels. Your sister goes with
> >sailors..." What does this have to do with Michel's wish for peace in
> >Israel?
> >
> >   Dick Rosenberg
> >     ----- Original Message -----
> >     From: Leopold N Friedman
> >     To: World music from a Jewish slant
> >     Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:46 AM
> >     Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture
> >
> >
> >     Michel,
> >     Maybe that's what you meant to say. In your attempt to be clever
> >without
> >     doing your homework, you've done violence to a fairly polished
> >traditional
> >     work. I am offended that you just carelessly mistranslated from
> >German,
> >     thinking that would be good enough. (e.g., 'ir'n' and that's only the
> >first
> >     mistake; I don't know what or who 'palestinenish' or 'sholen' is,
> >etc.)
> >     Maybe few in your audience actually know any Yiddish and haven't
> >noticed
> >     or cared enough to call your mistakes to your attention if you
> >yourself haven't
> >     cared enough to express those words correctly.
> >
> >     Yiddish material should not be made into a meta-code, puzzle, or joke
> >for
> >     the amusement of German (or even Hebrew) speakers, with reversions to
> >     "real" languages when serious points are to be made. Would you change
> >     a song in German or French (or Arabic) or even any language you know
> >well
> >     without getting confirmation that your changes were, at least
> >linguistically,
> >     correct and valid? Mistakes that might be forgiveable in the haste of
> >everyday
> >     speech should not be preserved in a performance, if you take that
> >seriously.
> >     Yiddish material deserves just the same care and respect, or perhaps
> >even
> >     more, because it's threatened, as any other. Otherwise, it's mockery.
> >
> >     Thematically, Shnirele Perele is about 'moshiakh's tsaytn' (Messiah's
> >times)
> >     and uses Jewish religious and messianic imagery. To inject explicit
> >political
> >     imagery in the form of a Palestinian "hot button" into this song is to
> >change it
> >     to tutti frutti. The concept that you've replaced, that the "yidn veln
> >in erets yisroel
> >     aynshteyn," appears to have been misunderstood. This religious
> >concept, in fact,
> >     predates any concept of a Palestinian people or even the political
> >Zionism that
> >     established the state of Israel.  Additionally, 'aynsteyn' has
> >connotations of being
> >     (settled) secure and not of "returning." The song asserts that Jews
> >have never left,
> >     in the theological sense. Without being aware of that, wouldn't it be
> >presumptuous
> >     to proceed to try to "improve" that lyric?
> >
> >     Finally, 'ma yofis' (my original succinct comment) has connotations of
> >  "shuckin"
> >     and "jivin" for the goyim. Sorry, those are "Americanisms," which may
> >have to be
> >     looked up.
> >     Lee
> >
> >     On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:20:48 +0100 "Michel Borzykowski"
> ><borzykowski (at) infomaniak(dot)ch> writes:
> >
> >         ----- Original Message -----
> >         "...weln di yidn in erets isroel aynsteyn" means:
> >         The Jews will return to the land of Israel.
> >         and "... weln di yidn in erets isroel mit ir'n palestinenishen
> >brider kol sof in sholen lebn"
> >         The Jews will finally live in peace in the land of israel with
> >their Palestinian brothers.
> >
> >         Michal
> >
>
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