Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture

[Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky <yiddish...>]

Lee,

Any argument that any Yiddishist has made here that presenting sloppy 
Yiddish texts/lyrics shows disrespect for the language and culture has 
usually fallen on deaf ears, even though Yiddish language and culture serve 
as the underlying basis for this mailing list.  Furthermore, when a native 
speaker or language instructor offers a correction, there will always be a 
totally ignorant non-Yiddish speaker who will claim that the error is not 
incorrect, but merely 'daytshmerish', when this person doesn't have a clue 
as to which words are or aren't 'daytshmerish'.  Even if the proper 
correction by experts has already been offered, there will be someone else 
trying to poll subscribers on usage, as if proper usage could be determined 
by committee, -- a committee of non-Yiddish speakers no less.  This kind of 
gratuitous commentary by people who may have warm sentiments for the 
language, but can not speak it, only serve to vitiate whatever helpful 
pointers are made here and only confuse the other non-Yiddish speakers as 
to what is or isn't correct.  (I am sure those comments are yet to come.) 
 The whole exchange becomes not only unproductive, but destructive to 
anyone interested in learning Yiddish, because they think that chaos is 
normal for any discussion of Yiddish grammar.  They can not tell where 
fierce argumentative style of someone who likes to shoot from the hip ends 
and where linguistic knowledge begins.  That is why the few university 
Yiddish instructors or fully fluent native Yiddish speakers on this list 
don't bother to make corrections requiring more than 3 lines, if they 
bother at all.

Lee, I thoroughly understand your frustration when you see so many errors 
in a publicly performed text.  However, since you are one of the fully 
fluent native Yiddish speakers here and you did bother to write so much to 
make your point to Michel, I think you should offer to correct the new 
line.  Not doing so, does indeed belabor the point.  I know very well that 
you are politically against the line and you don't want to make it easy for 
him, but I think a correction should be offered.  Otherwise, you can not 
complain the next time he or someone else makes a mistake.  Since living in 
peace with Palestinians is the idea of the changed line, it really does not 
go against the song's concept of the Messiah bringing Jews to live happily 
again in Palestine.  As long as no on, thank God, is offering unpragmatic 
ideas, such as splitting Jerusalem with people who don't like to share 
anything with us 'infidels', we can easily say that the spirit of the 
changed line fits the traditional song very well.  I know the fear you have 
for the pro-Palestinian anti-Israel posturing that so many leftist Jews 
espouse, but this really isn't the case here.  Changing the last line is 
perfectly appropriate and within the folk tradition.  The only problem is 
that it has several errors.  Since many klezmer don't bother to learn 
Yiddish lyrics correctly, all we can do is hope that they will take 
intensive Yiddish language courses and not depend on Jewish-music 
subscribers to do little corrections.


So Michel, if you are changing the text to a Yiddish song, please add 
Yiddish lines, not German or Swiss German lines.  Using a good dictionary 
is a must if you are to change Yiddish lyrics.  Do learn the universal 
rules of Yiddish transliteration.  They are rather simple and readily 
available on the web, e.g., http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/roman.htm
ftp://ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu/pub/mendele/files/vol04/vol04.170
The problem with the Yiddish Transliteration Guide, however, is that it 
presumes that you not only already speak Yiddish, but that you already know 
Yiddish spelling [really easy to learn.]  There is a direct correlation 
between Yiddish characters and the representative Roman characters, and 
dialectal pronunciations do not factor in.  Knowing that Yiddish is 
Germanic language doesn't mean that you can insert a German or Swiss German 
word into a song, e.g., 'sholen', whatever that word is.  The dictionary 
would have told you that the word is 'sholem'. You can study how lyrics are 
constructed and spelled in one of the Mlotek books (always correct) or even 
from the Zemerl web site, which has a few errors.  And finally, find a 
native Yiddish speaker - not a German speaker - with whom you can check 
song texts and your pronunciation.  It is not happenstance that non-native 
singers, who have always taken great care to pronounce Yiddish meticulously 
well and mind the text as written, are considered the most successful 
Yiddish/klezmer performers today.  Although not everyone can speak Yiddish 
well, there are always a fair number of people in every audience, who can 
discern and appreciate correct Yiddish enunciation and vocalization.  Also, 
the more correct you sing, the more comprehensible you are and the greater 
chance you will have of reaching the hearts of your audience.

So finally,

>"... weln di yidn in erets >                     isroel mit ir'n > 
                    palestinenishen brider
>kol sof >                     in sholen lebn"

If we take the line as you wrote it, this should be:

.... Vet er kumen tsu geyn,
veln di yidn in erets y>                     isroel,
mit zeyere >                     palestiner brider [kuzinen] sof kol sof > 
                    in sholem aynshteyn"

The phrase meaning 'finally' is 'sof kol sof', not 'kol sof'.  'Kol sof' 
means something completely different Hebrew and nothing in Yiddish.

'Brider' should really be replaced with 'kuzinen', which is historically 
accurate and the way Jews usually refer to Arabs.

'Lebn' doesn't rhyme with "kumen tsu geyn", so why not leave the rhyming 
'aynshteyn' which means to settle, to stay.

The last line has to obviously be sung fast so that all the extra words get 
squeezed in.  To be able to make such a long line with so many different 
grammatical parts understandable, you have to know Yiddish intonation and 
rhythm patterns or else no one will understand you.  (Many German singers 
have this exact problem.)  If you don't have someone to teach you Yiddish 
rhythm & intonation patterns, then I suggest that you make the line much 
shorter.

I hope this helps this time, but remember few of us have time to do this 
kind of correcting on a mailing list.  There are only about 4-5 active 
subscribers on this list who can make these corrections with confidence and 
only two ever bother to comment on errors.  Some people keep on expecting 
us to do it every time they have a problem - unfair at every level.  I hope 
you understand Lee's being frustrated with people who insert German words 
into a Yiddish song and think that it will all come out fine in the wash. 
 Maybe in 200 years from now, it will go, but Yiddish is still a live 
language and we native speakers do mind it.  Not all Yiddish speakers will 
bother to tell you this - they will just discount you in their minds, but I 
will.  No English or German speaker would accept such level of incorrect 
usage in his/her native tongue and they surely will discount such singers 
as not serious or not "professional" performers.  If you are going to 
perform a song publicly, then not checking for correctness is just 
inexcusable.  It is also unprofessional.

For those who are interested in playing klezmer instrumentals or 
non-Yiddish music, this post is probably a total bore and they can't figure 
out what the fuss is about.  Sorry guys, this is post was not for you.

As for the spirit of your new line, Michel, all I can say is omeyn v'omeyn.


Reyzl


----------
From:  apikoyros (at) juno(dot)com [SMTP:apikoyros (at) juno(dot)com]
Sent:  Monday, November 05, 2001 1:43 PM
To:  World music from a Jewish slant
Subject:  Re:Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture

Lori,
Thanks. For my part, in the first place, I was hoping that Michel (who also 
signs himself as Michal) had made typing errors in transcribing at least 
some of that line of lyrics. In an earlier post, I made a point of saying 
that he probably meant well. His repost of it with a translation but no 
corrections confirmed what I had feared, unfortunately.

A technical note: He mistranslated the Yiddish word 'aynsteyn' in the 
original song to mean the same as the German word "Einstehen" which has a 
flavor of 'entering' and 'settling in' (in the sense that Thomas Friedman 
doesn't like).  The cognate Yiddish word 'aynsteyn,' in the context of the 
song, as I said, evokes a flavor of being settled and secure. That's only a 
nuance, perhaps, but it is relevant to the fit as well as the language of 
his change in lyrics.

I am not even criticizing Michel's desire to express his view at a Klezmer 
concert that Jews and Palestinians should find peace, only that this view 
needs to be injected into this traditional and simple Hasidic song in this 
way. Political statements can be successfully introduced into traditional 
material; If we look at the Klezmatics' repertoire, there are some 
excellent examples (as well as one or two that I felt uneasy about). In 
this case, I don't feel the political statement was done thoughtfully with 
regard for the material. I don't think, it belongs there. Michel should, of 
course, be free to write and perform anything to express himself, including 
that view, in Yiddish, if his Yiddish is up to it, or in French, German, or 
any other language, if it is not.

My point about Yiddish is that his lyrics were German or very broken 
Yiddish. Yiddish is a language with a "chip on its shoulder" (another 
Americanism), having been disparaged by everyone,
German, Jewish maskilim, Hebraists, etc. I don't think it is too much to 
ask that Yiddish be correct Yiddish and not just any hodge-podge someone 
with some recollections of a few words from their (grand)parents might use. 
Even mistakes would be excusable if there is evidence of at least some 
effort made.

Please reread what I wrote. I may have been unforgiving after repeatedly 
reading those lyrics without corrections, but I, at least, tried to take 
the matter seriously. I seem to be the only one who noticed or cared enough 
to call those mistakes in his lyrics (which he seems to be so proud of) to 
his attention. I am not looking for a job as his Yiddish lyricist.

As for 'ma yofis,' that can be looked up in Henry Sapoznik's book among 
other places. It refers to the historical phenomenon of Klezmorim giving 
their goyish audiences caricatures of Jewishness at the expense of their 
own dignity. (I know the lyrics Dick mentioned, they're funny, but 
irrelevant here.)

Lee

---------- Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org> writes:

Look, here's the issue as I see it.  If you are angered by something,
step back and compose an answer that will be less likely to hurt
someone.  Discuss the individual points of contention rationally.  If
you can't do that, either send privately or don't send it at all.

Let us keep in mind the common goal of tikkun olam.

mit frayndshaft,
Lorele


HG wrote:

> First of all, from what I understand, the one who suggested the
> translation was Michal and not Michel (notice the A and not E).One of
> the beautiful aspects of Yiddish is its flexibility - even at the
> times Yiddish was a spoken language (more than now) among European
> Jews, there was a difference between the German/Austrian and East
> European Yiddish. And then as the Jews imigrated to the States, they
> adopted American words.The beauty of it is its flexibility - it is
> like an open minded language, based on feelings, emotions and social
> connection. And anyway Yiddisch is originally written in Hebrew
> letters, so any transliteration is not always exact (take the word
> "Yiddish" itself. In German it is "Jiddisch" - so what is
> correct?)Hadass----- Original Message -----
>
>      From: Dick Rosenberg
>      To: World music from a Jewish slant
>      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:11 PM
>      Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing
>      the culture
>       I'm somewhat at a loss to understand exactly what it is
>      that you're offended about. Are you offended that Michel
>      didn't express his sentiments in gramatically correct
>      Yiddish? Then suggest a better phrasing. Are you offended
>      that he changed the message of the words from what one hopes
>      will be when the Moshiakh comes to his hopes that Israelis
>      and Palestinians will one day live in peace? Isn't that part
>      of the folk process? I haven't seen anybody getting offended
>      about what the Klezmatics added to ale brider expressing
>      their sentiments. I believe here in America we call that
>      respect and understanding for those who have a different
>      opinion or outlook than us. And finally, I don't understand
>      the "ma yofis" comment at all. The way I understand the song
>      it means "You think you're such a hotshot. Your (father,
>      cousin, I forget what) greases wheels. Your sister goes with
>      sailors..." What does this have to do with Michel's wish for
>      peace in Israel? Dick Rosenberg
>
>           ----- Original Message -----
>           From: Leopold N Friedman
>           To: World music from a Jewish slant
>           Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:46 AM
>           Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without
>           knowing the culture
>            Michel,Maybe that's what you meant to say. In
>           your attempt to be clever withoutdoing your
>           homework, you've done violence to a fairly
>           polished traditionalwork. I am offended that you
>           just carelessly mistranslated from German,thinking
>           that would be good enough. (e.g., 'ir'n' and
>           that's only the firstmistake; I don't know what or
>           who 'palestinenish' or 'sholen' is, etc.)Maybe few
>           in your audience actually know any Yiddish and
>           haven't noticedor cared enough to call your
>           mistakes to your attention if you yourself
>           haven'tcared enough to express those words
>           correctly. Yiddish material should not be made
>           into a meta-code, puzzle, or joke forthe amusement
>           of German (or even Hebrew) speakers, with
>           reversions to"real" languages when serious points
>           are to be made. Would you changea song in German
>           or French (or Arabic) or even any language you
>           know wellwithout getting confirmation that your
>           changes were, at least linguistically,correct and
>           valid? Mistakes that might be forgiveable in the
>           haste of everydayspeech should not be preserved in
>           a performance, if you take that seriously.Yiddish
>           material deserves just the same care and respect,
>           or perhaps evenmore, because it's threatened, as
>           any other. Otherwise, it's mockery. Thematically,
>           Shnirele Perele is about 'moshiakh's tsaytn'
>           (Messiah's times)
>           and uses Jewish religious and messianic imagery.
>           To inject explicit politicalimagery in the form of
>           a Palestinian "hot button" into this song is to
>           change itto tutti frutti. The concept that you've
>           replaced, that the "yidn veln in erets
>           yisroelaynshteyn," appears to have been
>           misunderstood. This religious concept, in
>           fact,predates any concept of a Palestinian people
>           or even the political Zionism thatestablished the
>           state of Israel.  Additionally, 'aynsteyn' has
>           connotations of being(settled) secure and not of
>           "returning." The song asserts that Jews have never
>           left,in the theological sense. Without being aware
>           of that, wouldn't it be presumptuousto proceed to
>           try to "improve" that lyric? Finally, 'ma yofis'
>           (my original succinct comment) has connotations
>           of  "shuckin"and "jivin" for the goyim. Sorry,
>           those are "Americanisms," which may have to
>           belooked up.Lee On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:20:48 +0100
>           "Michel Borzykowski" <borzykowski (at) infomaniak(dot)ch>
>           writes:
>
>
>
>                     ----- Original Message -----
>                     "...weln di yidn in erets
>                     isroel aynsteyn" means:
>                     The Jews will return to the
>                     land of Israel.
>                     and "... weln di yidn in erets
>                     isroel mit ir'n
>                     palestinenishen brider kol sof
>                     in sholen lebn"
>                     The Jews will finally live in
>                     peace in the land of israel
>                     with their Palestinian
>                     brothers.
>                     Michal
>
>
>




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