Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing the culture

[Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan...>]

Look, here's the issue as I see it.  If you are angered by something,
step back and compose an answer that will be less likely to hurt
someone.  Discuss the individual points of contention rationally.  If
you can't do that, either send privately or don't send it at all.

Let us keep in mind the common goal of tikkun olam.

mit frayndshaft,
Lorele


HG wrote:

> First of all, from what I understand, the one who suggested the
> translation was Michal and not Michel (notice the A and not E).One of
> the beautiful aspects of Yiddish is its flexibility - even at the
> times Yiddish was a spoken language (more than now) among European
> Jews, there was a difference between the German/Austrian and East
> European Yiddish. And then as the Jews imigrated to the States, they
> adopted American words.The beauty of it is its flexibility - it is
> like an open minded language, based on feelings, emotions and social
> connection. And anyway Yiddisch is originally written in Hebrew
> letters, so any transliteration is not always exact (take the word
> "Yiddish" itself. In German it is "Jiddisch" - so what is
> correct?)Hadass----- Original Message -----
>
>      From: Dick Rosenberg
>      To: World music from a Jewish slant
>      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:11 PM
>      Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without knowing
>      the culture
>       I'm somewhat at a loss to understand exactly what it is
>      that you're offended about. Are you offended that Michel
>      didn't express his sentiments in gramatically correct
>      Yiddish? Then suggest a better phrasing. Are you offended
>      that he changed the message of the words from what one hopes
>      will be when the Moshiakh comes to his hopes that Israelis
>      and Palestinians will one day live in peace? Isn't that part
>      of the folk process? I haven't seen anybody getting offended
>      about what the Klezmatics added to ale brider expressing
>      their sentiments. I believe here in America we call that
>      respect and understanding for those who have a different
>      opinion or outlook than us. And finally, I don't understand
>      the "ma yofis" comment at all. The way I understand the song
>      it means "You think you're such a hotshot. Your (father,
>      cousin, I forget what) greases wheels. Your sister goes with
>      sailors..." What does this have to do with Michel's wish for
>      peace in Israel? Dick Rosenberg
>
>           ----- Original Message -----
>           From: Leopold N Friedman
>           To: World music from a Jewish slant
>           Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:46 AM
>           Subject: Re: breaking the string of pearls without
>           knowing the culture
>            Michel,Maybe that's what you meant to say. In
>           your attempt to be clever withoutdoing your
>           homework, you've done violence to a fairly
>           polished traditionalwork. I am offended that you
>           just carelessly mistranslated from German,thinking
>           that would be good enough. (e.g., 'ir'n' and
>           that's only the firstmistake; I don't know what or
>           who 'palestinenish' or 'sholen' is, etc.)Maybe few
>           in your audience actually know any Yiddish and
>           haven't noticedor cared enough to call your
>           mistakes to your attention if you yourself
>           haven'tcared enough to express those words
>           correctly. Yiddish material should not be made
>           into a meta-code, puzzle, or joke forthe amusement
>           of German (or even Hebrew) speakers, with
>           reversions to"real" languages when serious points
>           are to be made. Would you changea song in German
>           or French (or Arabic) or even any language you
>           know wellwithout getting confirmation that your
>           changes were, at least linguistically,correct and
>           valid? Mistakes that might be forgiveable in the
>           haste of everydayspeech should not be preserved in
>           a performance, if you take that seriously.Yiddish
>           material deserves just the same care and respect,
>           or perhaps evenmore, because it's threatened, as
>           any other. Otherwise, it's mockery. Thematically,
>           Shnirele Perele is about 'moshiakh's tsaytn'
>           (Messiah's times)
>           and uses Jewish religious and messianic imagery.
>           To inject explicit politicalimagery in the form of
>           a Palestinian "hot button" into this song is to
>           change itto tutti frutti. The concept that you've
>           replaced, that the "yidn veln in erets
>           yisroelaynshteyn," appears to have been
>           misunderstood. This religious concept, in
>           fact,predates any concept of a Palestinian people
>           or even the political Zionism thatestablished the
>           state of Israel.  Additionally, 'aynsteyn' has
>           connotations of being(settled) secure and not of
>           "returning." The song asserts that Jews have never
>           left,in the theological sense. Without being aware
>           of that, wouldn't it be presumptuousto proceed to
>           try to "improve" that lyric? Finally, 'ma yofis'
>           (my original succinct comment) has connotations
>           of  "shuckin"and "jivin" for the goyim. Sorry,
>           those are "Americanisms," which may have to
>           belooked up.Lee On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:20:48 +0100
>           "Michel Borzykowski" <borzykowski (at) infomaniak(dot)ch>
>           writes:
>
>
>
>                     ----- Original Message -----
>                     "...weln di yidn in erets
>                     isroel aynsteyn" means:
>                     The Jews will return to the
>                     land of Israel.
>                     and "... weln di yidn in erets
>                     isroel mit ir'n
>                     palestinenishen brider kol sof
>                     in sholen lebn"
>                     The Jews will finally live in
>                     peace in the land of israel
>                     with their Palestinian
>                     brothers.
>                     Michal
>
>
>