Re: A nice surprise?

[Rabbi Ken Alter <rabbialter...>]

Ditto, Glenn and Winston, well said.

  Robert,

    Take your anger out on someone else. Shirona and her beautiful music
are a gift
    to all of us and your words were very hurtful to all of us who
appreciate Shirona's
    gifts and beautiful neshamah. I'm thankful that I'm in a Conservative
Synagogue where Shirona can perform and has performed to the delight of
EVERYONE.

    Ken

glenn tamir wrote:

> Ditto Winston!
>
> Glenn Tamir
>
> --- WINSTON WEILHEIMER <nusach (at) hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
> > robert, where is all this anger coming from?
> > You are usually more calm.
> >
> > I do not believe that you are reading Shirona's
> > posting properly.  What is
> > with these pesonal attacks?  Not only is this not in
> > the spirit of this
> > list, but it is not a very good thing Jewishly.
> > What happened to Lashon
> > Harah?  What happened to just good manners and
> > civility?  You refer to
> > Shirona as our correspondant.  Why do you not refer
> > to her by name?  She
> > also has a wonderful voice and i am happy and proud
> > to play her music which
> > is also very spiritual in nature.  I would encourage
> > you to go to her web
> > site and listen to her.  It is not a kol isha issue
> > listening to a womans
> > voice that is not a live performance, so there would
> > be no halachic reason
> > for you not to do so.
> >
> > But as to your posting, Do you not look around when
> > you go to a new shul?
> > Do you not look around in your own shul?  When you
> > are looking at the bima,
> > is it distracting to those reading torah or the
> > sheliach tzibur?  Are they
> > or the kavanah in the room somehow dimished because
> > members of the
> > congregation are looking at them?  When you go to a
> > family simcha, just
> > because you kvell, does that make it a show?  I do
> > not understand, but is it
> > perhaps that there is an observant congregation that
> > has come out of the
> > 18th century into the 21st that bothers you?  You
> > say you respect Rabbi
> > Adler, yet you attack him for his leadership.  Is
> > that respect?
> >
> > I intentionally called it observant, since without a
> > mechitzah, you would
> > not recognize it as orthodox.
> >
> > you call Shirona statement "arrogent and self
> > rightous".  You posting seems
> > to fit the discription.
> >
> > winston
> >
> **********************************************************************
> >
> > >From: "Robert Cohen" <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
> > >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > >To: World music from a Jewish slant
> > <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> > >Subject: Re: A nice surprise?
> > >Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:02:43
> > >
> > >>For me it was a spiritual and emotional experience
> > - seeing "frum" women
> > >>taking an active and awe inspiring roll in the
> > service, as equal to men
> > >>and
> > >>equal before G-d.  (I was watching the men during
> > the portions where women
> > >>were leading, and they  seemed very comfortable.
> > The husbands whose wives
> > >>were leading looked very proud.   It was all very
> > natural...
> > >
> > >
> > >I have much respect and regard for Moshe Adler and
> > am very interested to
> > >hear that he's overseeing a traditional but
> > egalitarian service.  I would
> > >automatically incline to assume that he's coming
> > from a thoughtful and
> > >serious place in doing so.
> > >
> > >Having said that:  Between the lines--or, actually,
> > *in* the lines--of this
> > >posting are flashing yellow lights indicating some
> > of the potential
> > >problems, perhaps, of such services.  *Why,* for
> > example, was our
> > >correspondent "watching the men during the portions
> > where women were
> > >leading"--or at any time, for that matter?  One of
> > the reasons why many
> > >women that I've talked to about this, or whose
> > thoughts I've read about
> > >from
> > >other's writing and interviewing, *like* a separate
> > space from men is so
> > >they *won't* be watched during davening--and I
> > can't imagine that the men
> > >being watched here benefited from being
> > watched--"spiritually and
> > >emotionally," as our correspondent puts it.  Nor do
> > I imagine that the
> > >women
> > >at the service would have experienced a deeper
> > kavannah in their davening
> > >if
> > >*they* were being watched.
> > >
> > >It's nice that the husbands of women leading the
> > service "looked very
> > >proud"--though, again, nobody should have been
> > noticing--but that suggests,
> > >again, *less* focus and intensity in prayer (or
> > contemplation, study,
> > >etc.),
> > >which is what a synagogue service should be about.
> > This service comes off,
> > >at least in this account, as more of a
> > show-and-tell entertainment
> > >production--that's where one is appropriately
> > "proud" of one's
> > >spouse's/children's/friend's home run, aria, etc.
> > Parents, etc., can't
> > >help
> > >but kvell over their children's bar/bat
> > mitzvah--uncles too.  But that
> > >should be the exception--and, indeed, in the
> > synagogues, in my experience,
> > >where bar mitzvah is taken maximally seriously as a
> > religious coming of age
> > >and not a pageant-with-party, even parents'
> > kvelling is expressed in a very
> > >different way from at Little League.
> > >
> > >
> > >>Later I spent a good half hour talking with the
> > Rabbi,  Moshe
> > >>Adler.  We should all be blessed with such Rabbis
> > - open minded,
> > >>spiritual,
> > >>a man who is in touch with his own conscience -
> > and has the guts to act on
> > >>his beliefs.  Even in the face of a hostile "peer
> > environment".
> > >
> > >
> > >I have, as I said, nothing but regard for Moshe
> > Adler.  But Shirona is,
> > >sadly, again so wrapped up in self-righteousness
> > that she imagines that
> > >only
> > >those who agree with her are "in touch with [their]
> > own conscience" or
> > >"[have] the guts to act on [their] beliefs."  It's
> > a supremely arrogant and
> > >ugly notion--but Shirona seems incapable of
> > recognizing that a rabbi who
> > >*doesn't* choose to go in this--i.e., her
> > preferred--direction may be just
> > >as in touch with his conscience--and perhaps
> > showing even more guts, since
> > >he has to defy, among other things, the limitless
> > self-righteousness of
> > >some
> > >(but not all) Jewish (and non-Jewish, for that
> > matter) feminists.
> > >
> > >
> > >I admire Rabbi Adler, among other reasons, because,
> > in my limited
> > >experience, he *doesn't* convey this kind of
> > arrogant
> > >self-righteousness--but, rather, an earnest
> > humility (one of the
> > >requirements of which is the knowledge and belief
> > that one may be wrong) in
> > >seeking to hear what G*d wants of him at any given
> > moment and to serve G*d
> > >as best he can.
> > >
> > >It's an example worth emulating.
> > >
> > >--Robert Cohen
> > >
> > >
> >
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