Re: A nice surprise?

[glenn tamir <klezska...>]

Ditto Winston!

Glenn Tamir
--- WINSTON WEILHEIMER <nusach (at) hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
> robert, where is all this anger coming from?
> You are usually more calm.
> 
> I do not believe that you are reading Shirona's
> posting properly.  What is 
> with these pesonal attacks?  Not only is this not in
> the spirit of this 
> list, but it is not a very good thing Jewishly. 
> What happened to Lashon 
> Harah?  What happened to just good manners and
> civility?  You refer to 
> Shirona as our correspondant.  Why do you not refer
> to her by name?  She 
> also has a wonderful voice and i am happy and proud
> to play her music which 
> is also very spiritual in nature.  I would encourage
> you to go to her web 
> site and listen to her.  It is not a kol isha issue
> listening to a womans 
> voice that is not a live performance, so there would
> be no halachic reason 
> for you not to do so.
> 
> But as to your posting, Do you not look around when
> you go to a new shul?  
> Do you not look around in your own shul?  When you
> are looking at the bima, 
> is it distracting to those reading torah or the
> sheliach tzibur?  Are they 
> or the kavanah in the room somehow dimished because
> members of the 
> congregation are looking at them?  When you go to a
> family simcha, just 
> because you kvell, does that make it a show?  I do
> not understand, but is it 
> perhaps that there is an observant congregation that
> has come out of the 
> 18th century into the 21st that bothers you?  You
> say you respect Rabbi 
> Adler, yet you attack him for his leadership.  Is
> that respect?
> 
> I intentionally called it observant, since without a
> mechitzah, you would 
> not recognize it as orthodox.
> 
> you call Shirona statement "arrogent and self
> rightous".  You posting seems 
> to fit the discription.
> 
> winston
>
**********************************************************************
> 
> >From: "Robert Cohen" <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
> >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >To: World music from a Jewish slant
> <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> >Subject: Re: A nice surprise?
> >Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:02:43
> >
> >>For me it was a spiritual and emotional experience
> - seeing "frum" women
> >>taking an active and awe inspiring roll in the
> service, as equal to men 
> >>and
> >>equal before G-d.  (I was watching the men during
> the portions where women
> >>were leading, and they  seemed very comfortable.
> The husbands whose wives
> >>were leading looked very proud.   It was all very
> natural...
> >
> >
> >I have much respect and regard for Moshe Adler and
> am very interested to
> >hear that he's overseeing a traditional but
> egalitarian service.  I would
> >automatically incline to assume that he's coming
> from a thoughtful and
> >serious place in doing so.
> >
> >Having said that:  Between the lines--or, actually,
> *in* the lines--of this
> >posting are flashing yellow lights indicating some
> of the potential
> >problems, perhaps, of such services.  *Why,* for
> example, was our
> >correspondent "watching the men during the portions
> where women were
> >leading"--or at any time, for that matter?  One of
> the reasons why many
> >women that I've talked to about this, or whose
> thoughts I've read about 
> >from
> >other's writing and interviewing, *like* a separate
> space from men is so
> >they *won't* be watched during davening--and I
> can't imagine that the men
> >being watched here benefited from being
> watched--"spiritually and
> >emotionally," as our correspondent puts it.  Nor do
> I imagine that the 
> >women
> >at the service would have experienced a deeper
> kavannah in their davening 
> >if
> >*they* were being watched.
> >
> >It's nice that the husbands of women leading the
> service "looked very
> >proud"--though, again, nobody should have been
> noticing--but that suggests,
> >again, *less* focus and intensity in prayer (or
> contemplation, study, 
> >etc.),
> >which is what a synagogue service should be about. 
> This service comes off,
> >at least in this account, as more of a
> show-and-tell entertainment
> >production--that's where one is appropriately
> "proud" of one's
> >spouse's/children's/friend's home run, aria, etc. 
> Parents, etc., can't 
> >help
> >but kvell over their children's bar/bat
> mitzvah--uncles too.  But that
> >should be the exception--and, indeed, in the
> synagogues, in my experience,
> >where bar mitzvah is taken maximally seriously as a
> religious coming of age
> >and not a pageant-with-party, even parents'
> kvelling is expressed in a very
> >different way from at Little League.
> >
> >
> >>Later I spent a good half hour talking with the
> Rabbi,  Moshe
> >>Adler.  We should all be blessed with such Rabbis
> - open minded, 
> >>spiritual,
> >>a man who is in touch with his own conscience -
> and has the guts to act on
> >>his beliefs.  Even in the face of a hostile "peer
> environment".
> >
> >
> >I have, as I said, nothing but regard for Moshe
> Adler.  But Shirona is,
> >sadly, again so wrapped up in self-righteousness
> that she imagines that 
> >only
> >those who agree with her are "in touch with [their]
> own conscience" or
> >"[have] the guts to act on [their] beliefs."  It's
> a supremely arrogant and
> >ugly notion--but Shirona seems incapable of
> recognizing that a rabbi who
> >*doesn't* choose to go in this--i.e., her
> preferred--direction may be just
> >as in touch with his conscience--and perhaps
> showing even more guts, since
> >he has to defy, among other things, the limitless
> self-righteousness of 
> >some
> >(but not all) Jewish (and non-Jewish, for that
> matter) feminists.
> >
> >
> >I admire Rabbi Adler, among other reasons, because,
> in my limited
> >experience, he *doesn't* convey this kind of
> arrogant
> >self-righteousness--but, rather, an earnest
> humility (one of the
> >requirements of which is the knowledge and belief
> that one may be wrong) in
> >seeking to hear what G*d wants of him at any given
> moment and to serve G*d
> >as best he can.
> >
> >It's an example worth emulating.
> >
> >--Robert Cohen
> >
> >
>
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