Re: Cymbaly /was Re:/

[Paul M. Gifford <PGIFFORD...>]

Joshua Horowitz <horowitz (at) styria(dot)com> said:

> But the word used as an insult
> ("Ty cymbale") doesn't mean that it designated "idiot" FIRST. It just
> means that at some point, tsimbl players became the brunt of a joke, and
> eventually these jokes found their way into a condensed figure of
> speech. Like when somebody says something stupid at a party and someone
> reponds with, "Oh you must be an accordionist". That wouldn't imply that
> the word accordion first meant idiot, and then became an instrument
> name, though... Josh 

I don't want to beat this one to death, Josh, but the terms, I'm sure,
has a separate etymology. The point I made about the surnames is that
some names, like Cymbaliuk, Cymbalok (and others---I collected 
several from Lithuanian, Ukrainian, Polish, and Lemko sources) derive 
from the word meaning "simpleton." These could well be older than the
names derived from the occupational "Tsymbalistyj," "Zimbler," etc. 
(which was the point of collecting the names). There are a lot of 
names derived from the word for "simpleton," in Lithuanian, for 
example, but none (other than the Jewish 'Zimbler' or 'Zimbalist') 
derived from the word for the player of the instrument. Perhaps the 
word is a cognate to the Romanian and Greek words and only converges
in Polish as _cymbaly_.

Paul Gifford

 
> > Barbara Szydlowicz-Ceglowa, in _Staropolskie instrumenty (?)_
> > (1976), gives a detailed etymology of cymbaly; the term used
> > for 'dulcimer' appears around the end of the 16th century. Earlier
> > it was used for 'bells' and also 'harpsichord.' She doesn't mention
> > anything about the association with the word that means 'simpleton.'
> > I did look the latter word up in a Polish etymological dictionary,
> > but don't remember the details. However, the word IS the origin
> > of some Polish, Lemko, and Ukrainian family names, such as Cymbaliuk,
> > Cymbal, Cymbalok, etc. It also exists in Lithuanian and Slovak. This
> > is probably an example of convergence. I do that the rare Jewish name
> > Zimbelman, however, derives from "tsimbler" (like "Fiedelman").
>  
> > Paul Gifford
> 
> 
> 

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