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Re[4]: Der yidisher tam
- From: richard_wolpoe <richard_wolpoe...>
- Subject: Re[4]: Der yidisher tam
- Date: Fri 27 Mar 1998 18.08 (GMT)
I wouldn't doubt for one minute that Jews introduced many things to Poland. The
reverse is also probably true.
Let me split one or two more hairs.
If Albert Einstein introduced Relativity (I know he didn't - Newton had a for
of relativity, but this is simply to make a point) Would it imply that this was
a Jewish Science (as indeed the Nazis YS did say) or was it a scientific
discovery made by a Jew?
What's my point? If a Jew migrated from France to Poland and brought with him
winemaking, the Jew might have introduced winemaking into France, but that does
not imply it is a Jewish craft per se. Or is spaghetti Italian because marco
Polo brought it to Italy? (Let's agree not to debate whether he actually made
it to China or not.)
I'm not an expert in the history of cuisine, but I do know that the French crepe
is closely related to the Yiddish Creploch,and I have little doubt that Jews
took if from France (where I don't know WHO introduced it first French Jews or
French non-Jews) and then in Eastern Europe it also became the rage and may have
ben called pierogie or whatever.
I want to clear up something insidious that I may have introduced and that you
may be unintentionally perpetuating.
1) I did not mean to imply that I bought the argument of Polish gentiles
vis-à-vis our culture, only that they make that claim that what we pass off
as Jewish is really Eastern European. There is SOME truth to this claim in
that Sephardic jews for example do not share some of these things.
2) By saying that it was the Jews who brought it to the Poles we are
unconsciously saying that the Jews in Poland were not "really" Poles but
something else. This is very consistent with a lot of anti-Semitic literature
that accuses the Jews of being outsiders even when inside a country for
generations. It's a very slippery slope. My grandfather was a native of
Bialystok and I would consider him "Polish" in the modern secular meaning of the
word, although I'm fairly sure he never ate kielbasa. So, if a Jew in Polland
invents some thing, is it a Jewish" invention or a Polish invention? if you say
it was a Jewish invention, you are also syaing that that Jew was not a Pole.
Bring this back to music, Buirt Bacharach and Irving Berlin did not compose
Jewish music per se. Leonard Bernstein did compose some jewish stuff (eg
Kaddish) but is West Side Story Jewish or American?
What seems obvious to me is that both Poles and Jews mutually shared a lot of
cultural stuff from each other, because Jews from other places don't have the
customs and cuisine of Polish Jews - EXCEPT where there is specific Jewish
imperative (eg Charoses).
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Der yidisher tam
Author: <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org> at Tcpgate
Date: 3/27/98 5:47 AM
Richard,
Just read your March 9th post...
You expressed it all very well here, Richard. I totally agree.
I would just make one comment about point number (6). What the
Polish gentiles can not tell you is that Jews are usually the ones
who introduced various foods, arts, and cultural ways into Eastern
Europe. This is not the place to provide you with evidence for such
a large statement. I will just give you one example although there
are a long list of them. The Poles are very famous and proud of
their distinctive style of papercutting. In Europe, Jews are hardly
known for any particular style of papercutting. But the fact is that
Jews introduced the art to the Poles. We know exactly where and when,
so do eminent Polish papercut scholars. But if you will listen to
general Polish population, they will tell you that various Jewish arts
and cultural ways are merely "Slavic" or Eastern European. So let's
not let the Poles define for us what is and isn't Jewish. They owe
the Jews too much in all these departments to be able to be objective.
The same goes for the Ukrainians and Russians. I don't know what the
Romanians and Hungarians acknowledge.
Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky
----------
From: richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com[SMTP:richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com]
Sent: Monday, March 09, 1998 12:03 PM
To: World music from a Jewish slant.
Subject: Re[2]: Der yidisher tam
Since this is not a Halachic list, I will do my best to leave Halachic
aspects out...
However, some points can still be made from both a musical and from a
Jewish perspective:
1) the broader our knowledge of "jewish" music, the more options we have
to base new compositions on old foundations that at least have a jewish
association or adaptation.
2) Plus, the more knowledgeable we are, the more likely that newly created
music "fits" the words or the liturgy or whatever.
3) Also ,the broader we are, the more we realize there is no single jewish
style. There MIGHT be a single style for Moldavian jews, and a single
style for Litvishe jews, etc. but even then I doubt it.
4) Even though there may be no specific guidelines on what's acceptable an
what isn't, I think we can sometimes judge certain music as inapproriate.
like pornography, I can't define it but I know it when I see it. new
compositions are fine, they should be in good taste (whatever that is!) newe
5) Times change and music evolves. There is no ONE arrangement of any
piece that is sacrsanct. There are MODES that have been widely accepted as
being proper, eg the Avahava Rabba mode for Ahava Rabba. No 2 artists will
replicate the same piece identically. And musial instrruments evolve, too.
so do styles of playing. Is anyone familiar wit htehe sliding violin style
of the 1920's?
6) Mozart and all the rest borrowed extensivly from folk music. So does
our liturgy. A number of Polish Gentiles have told me that what we pas of
as jewish is merely Eastern European stuff. From pierogies, to blintses,
etc. etc. So that yiddisher taam that wells our eyes with nostalgia might
actually refelct more the Eastern European milieu more than anything
intrinsically Jewish.
7) congregations have their own traidtions and customs. Tampering with
them in a willy-nilly fashion in such a way as to make the congregants
uncomfortable would offend the sensibilites of that congregation. A cantor
is a shliach tsibbur, an angent of the congregation. If that agent is in
conflict with the congregants, that would create moe disharmony than
harmony (pun intended). That does not preclude introducing new melodies,
It should just be done in a co-operative fashion.
8) On purim, evey singel rule above is subject to violation, so get in your
licks while you can!
Happy Purim
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Der yidisher tam
Author: <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org > at Tcpgate
Date: 3/9/98 11:09 AM
I can't buy your argument that "That means people should be thoroughly steeped
in the tradition as a first requirement. Only then will they be able to judge
what changes might be for the better, or at least of equal quality, and what
changes might be for the worse. When you are able to be creative from within
a tradition, that's when it's a living tradition."
What tradition do you mean? There is no "Jewish tradition" in music. I have
a tape of Adon Alom sung by Moroccan Jews to a typical North African Arab
melody. That is a Jewish tradition, but not the one you probably have in
mind.
Every creative person starts from somewhere, not from a blank page. But then
he must innovate. Classical composers like Bach and Mozart departed from
their "tradition" and created something wonderful to this day. Listening to
Mozart played of reconstructed instrument so his time is of interest to the
musicologist and some others, but I prefer Mozart played on modern
instruments. That is my tradition in hearing classical music. A difference
between Beethoven's piano pieces and Mozart's is that Beethoven composed for
the modern piano, but I do not want to hear either played on a piano of
Mozart's time.
If you want to preserve your tradition, you are free to do so. But don't tell
me that it is THE Jewsih tradition. I know better.
- Re: Der yidisher tam, (continued)
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