Re[4]: Der yidisher tam

[richard_wolpoe <richard_wolpoe...>]

I wouldn't doubt for one minute that Jews introduced many things to Poland.  The
reverse is also probably true.

Let me split one or two more hairs.

If Albert Einstein introduced Relativity (I know he didn't -  Newton had a for 
of relativity, but this is simply to make a point)  Would it imply that this was
a Jewish Science  (as indeed the Nazis YS did say) or was it a scientific 
discovery made by a Jew?

What's my point? If a Jew migrated from France to Poland and brought with him 
winemaking, the Jew might have introduced winemaking into France, but that does 
not imply it is a Jewish craft per se.  Or is spaghetti Italian because marco 
Polo brought it to Italy?  (Let's agree not to debate whether he actually made 
it to China or not.)

I'm not an expert in the history of cuisine, but I do know that the French crepe
is closely related to the Yiddish Creploch,and I have little doubt that Jews 
took if from France (where I don't know WHO introduced it first French Jews or 
French non-Jews) and then in Eastern Europe it also became the rage and may have
ben called pierogie or whatever.

I want to clear up something insidious that I may have introduced and that you 
may be unintentionally perpetuating. 
1)  I did not mean to imply that I bought the argument of Polish gentiles 
vis-à-vis our culture, only that they make that claim that what we pass off 
as Jewish is really Eastern European.  There is SOME truth to this claim in 
that Sephardic jews for example do not share some of these things. 
2)  By saying that it was the Jews who brought it to the Poles we are 
unconsciously saying that the Jews in Poland were not "really" Poles but 
something else.  This is very consistent with a lot of anti-Semitic literature 
that accuses the Jews of being outsiders even when inside a country for 
generations.  It's a very slippery slope.  My grandfather was a native of 
Bialystok and I would consider him "Polish" in the modern secular meaning of the
word, although I'm fairly sure he never ate kielbasa.  So, if a Jew in Polland 
invents some thing, is it a Jewish" invention or a Polish invention?  if you say
it was a Jewish invention, you are also syaing that that Jew was not a Pole.  
Bring this back to music, Buirt Bacharach and Irving Berlin did not compose 
Jewish music per se. Leonard Bernstein did compose some jewish stuff (eg 
Kaddish) but is West Side Story Jewish or American?

What seems obvious to me is that both Poles and Jews mutually shared a lot of 
cultural stuff from each other, because Jews from other places don't have the 
customs and cuisine of Polish Jews - EXCEPT where there is specific Jewish 
imperative (eg Charoses).


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Der yidisher tam  
Author:  <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org> at Tcpgate 
Date:    3/27/98 5:47 AM


Richard,

Just read your March 9th post...

You expressed it all very well here, Richard.   I totally agree.  
I would just make one comment about point number (6).   What the 
Polish gentiles can not tell you is that Jews are usually the ones 
who introduced various foods, arts, and cultural ways into Eastern 
Europe.   This is not the place to provide you with evidence for such 
a large statement.   I will just give you one example although there 
are a long list of them.   The Poles are very famous and proud of 
their distinctive style of papercutting.   In Europe, Jews are hardly 
known for any particular style of papercutting.  But the fact is that 
Jews introduced the art to the Poles.   We know exactly where and when, 
so do eminent Polish papercut scholars.   But if you will listen to 
general Polish population, they will tell you that various Jewish arts 
and cultural ways are merely "Slavic" or Eastern European.   So let's 
not let the Poles define for us what is and isn't Jewish.  They owe 
the Jews too much in all these departments to be able to be objective.   
The same goes for the Ukrainians and Russians.  I don't know what the 
Romanians and Hungarians acknowledge.


Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky



----------
From:  richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com[SMTP:richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com] 
Sent:  Monday, March 09, 1998 12:03 PM
To:  World music from a Jewish slant. 
Subject:  Re[2]: Der yidisher tam 



Since this is not a Halachic list, I will do my best to leave Halachic 
aspects out...

However, some points can still be made from both a musical and from a 
Jewish perspective:

1)  the broader our knowledge of "jewish" music, the more options we have 
to base new compositions on old foundations that at least have a jewish 
association or adaptation.

2)  Plus, the more knowledgeable we are, the more likely that newly created 
music "fits" the words or the liturgy or whatever.

3)  Also ,the broader we are, the more we realize there is no single jewish 
style.  There MIGHT be  a single style for Moldavian jews, and a single 
style for Litvishe jews, etc. but even then I doubt it.

4)  Even though there may be no specific guidelines on what's acceptable an 
what isn't, I think we can sometimes judge certain music as inapproriate.  
like pornography, I can't define it but I know it when I see it.  new 
compositions are fine, they should be in good taste (whatever that is!) newe 

5)  Times change and music evolves.  There is no ONE arrangement of any 
piece that is sacrsanct.  There are MODES that have been widely accepted as 
being proper, eg the Avahava Rabba mode for Ahava Rabba.  No 2 artists will 
replicate the same piece identically.  And musial instrruments evolve, too. 
so do styles of playing.  Is anyone familiar wit htehe sliding violin style 
of the 1920's?

6)  Mozart and all the rest borrowed extensivly from folk music.  So does 
our liturgy.  A number of Polish Gentiles have told me that what we pas of 
as jewish is merely Eastern European stuff.  From pierogies, to blintses, 
etc. etc.  So that yiddisher taam that wells our eyes with nostalgia might 
actually refelct more the Eastern European milieu more than anything 
intrinsically Jewish.

7)  congregations have their own traidtions and customs.  Tampering with 
them in a willy-nilly fashion in such a way as to make the congregants 
uncomfortable would offend the sensibilites of that congregation.  A cantor 
is a shliach tsibbur, an angent of the congregation.  If that agent is in 
conflict with the congregants, that would create moe disharmony than 
harmony (pun intended).  That does not preclude introducing new melodies, 
It should just be done in a co-operative fashion.  

8) On purim, evey singel rule above is subject to violation, so get in your 
licks while you can!

Happy Purim 

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE:  Der yidisher tam 
Author:  <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org > at Tcpgate 
Date:    3/9/98 11:09 AM


I can't buy your argument that "That means people should be thoroughly steeped 
in the tradition as a first requirement.  Only then will they be able to judge 
what changes might be for the better,  or at least of equal quality, and what 
changes might be for the worse.   When you are able to be creative from within 
a tradition, that's when  it's a living tradition."

What tradition do you mean?  There is no "Jewish tradition" in music.  I have 
a tape of Adon Alom sung by Moroccan Jews to a typical North African Arab 
melody.  That is a Jewish tradition, but not the one you probably have in 
mind.

Every creative person starts from somewhere, not from a blank page.  But then 
he must innovate.  Classical composers like Bach and Mozart departed from 
their "tradition" and created something wonderful to this day.  Listening to 
Mozart played of reconstructed instrument so his time is of interest to the 
musicologist and some others, but I prefer Mozart played on  modern 
instruments.  That is my tradition in hearing classical music.  A difference 
between Beethoven's piano pieces and Mozart's is that Beethoven composed for 
the modern piano, but I do not want to hear either played on a piano of 
Mozart's time.

If you want to preserve your tradition, you are free to do so.  But don't tell 
me that it is THE Jewsih tradition.  I know better.