Re: klezmer experience

[Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel...>]

1) The biggest problem facing the Jewish people in today's world is
assimilation. We lose more through attrition than in any other manner.
'Jews' for J is a contributor to the overall problem.

2) In addition 'Jews' for J pulls Jews from their spiritual roots- however
you'd like to take that.

3) Of ourselves, we have a rich spiritual tradition- your conversion
certainly must have given you some sense of that. Something must have drawn
you to us. We are not them.

4) Their tradition contradicts ours, even though much is shared. They are
not us.

> If we had enough love and kindness for one another, we would not worry so
> much about these groups.

No additional comment necessary.

                    Ellie in Chicago




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ilse mozga" <mozga (at) idirect(dot)com>
To: "World music from a Jewish slant" <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: klezmer experience


> I'm a convert who went through the process under the auspices of the
> UAHC/Reform system (a year of study, sponsorship by a rabbi, beit din,
> mikveh.....) But to many Orthodox Jews I will never be Jewish, no matter
> how ethically and Jewishly I live my life. Sometimes that hurts.
>
> I try not to forget that. I think the general paranoia (you'd understand
if
> you lived in Toronto, we are one of the cities currently targeted, and the
> Jewish organizations are falling all over themselves trying to innoculate
> us uneducated masses against what they obviously see as the irresistable
> allure of people standing on street corners earing yellow Jews-for-Jesus
> t-shirts handing out pamphlets).
>
> No, I don't like it that they are exclusivist in their view of "salvation"
> and that they feel they need to save us from certain fire and brimstone.
> But they do not brainwash people, and they do not torture anyone. Their
> success, such as it is, in fact says a great deal about mainstream
Judaism:
> it tells us that we have not done a good enough job at being a welcoming
> home for many marginalized Jews. In some cases, we probably put them on
> that fringe, and now we complain when they let go.
>
> If we had enough love and kindness for one another, we would not worry so
> much about these groups. In truth, I don't want their numbers to swell,
but
> if they bring some faith in human goodness and in God to people who cannot
> find it anywhere else, I think that should be all right with us.
>
> ilse mozga
> toronto
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: I. Oppenheim <i(dot)oppenheim (at) xs4all(dot)nl>
> To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:31 PM
> Subject: Re: klezmer experience
>
>
> > On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, david lowther wrote:
> >
> > > The Messianics, like all Christians, honestly believe
> > > that they are duty bound...
> >
> > And so did Bin Laden when he sent his agents to destroy
> > the WTC and the Pentagon, and so did the woman who blew
> > herself up at a bus stop near Tel Aviv, today.
> >
> > Just because these monsters believe they are right,
> > does not make their horrific acts morally justified.
> >
> > > While that may be arrogant, presumptuous and
> > > tasteless,
> >
> > Not only that, it is criminal! These messianics want to
> > totally destroy Judaism, don't you understand that? To
> > add insult to injury, they use deceit to further their
> > goals.
> >
> > > from their perspective our danger of eternal
> > > damnation is more than adequate moral justification.
> >
> > Jesus had an excellent point: look at your own sins
> > before telling other people what to do.
> >
> > > I think I am going to stick with Voltaire on this
> > > one:  however obnoxious their personal beliefs, I
> > > must defend their right to live them within the laws
> > > of men.  This is the only protection for my own
> > > spiritual freedom.
> >
> > That is exactly the point: these messianics (like all
> > other fundamentalists) do not respect the spiritual
> > freedom of people who disagree with them. As such,
> > there is no room for fundamentalists within a
> > democratic society.
> >
> > > but I would not damn anybody to the lowest pits of
> > > Hell because they are boneheads
> >
> > All I ask those "boneheads" is to get out of our way
> > and to leave us alone. Am I too exacting?
> >
> > > Now with regard to how one defines a jew:  I suspect
> > > we will not agree on this one.  You seem to believe a
> > > jew is only one who believes in and follows the
> > > Mosaic Law and Talmud.
> >
> > No, a Jew is someone who belongs to the Jewish people,
> > either by being born to a Jewish mother or by
> > conversion. Once you are a Jew, it is impossible to
> > loose your Jewish status. This is a basic principle of
> > Judaism.
> >
> > > Let us get back to the issue of how we would then
> > > address the Messianics.  I would say that education
> > > of a lapsed jew is not proselytation,
> >
> > These Messianics are not lapsed Jews, but evangelistic
> > Christians who dress up as Jews, in an effort to
> > attract (and ultimately) convert Jews.
> >
> >
> >  Groeten,
> >  Irwin Oppenheim
> >  i(dot)oppenheim (at) xs4all(dot)nl
> >  ~~~*
> >
> >  Chazzanut Online:
> >  http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
>
>
>

---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+