Re: Joy of Klez--unsolicited praise (creeping off topic)

[Richard Schoeller <schoeller...>]

We are kind of wandering off topic, but it may be useful to explore some
of the issues are around such software.  As such I want to respond to
both of your recent messages.

First off, I agree that programs like Sibelius and Finale are the
current powerhouse applications.  You are not going to find applications
that combine widespread use and capability like these two.

There are two problems with relying on this.  First, and most immediate
from my point of view, is that while anyone can get these applications,
not everyone can easily run them.  Neither Finale nor Sibelius is
currently available for outside of Windows or Mac.  Linux is not
supported.  Nor do the vendors plan to support it.  If Linux is not
supported, you can forget about more esoteric platforms.

Second, does anyone remember Lotus 1-2-3 (or older still Visicalc)? 
Market dominance can be a fleeting thing.  To be too tied to proprietary
formats can be a serious problem in the long run.  One of the things
that an end user should keep in mind is whether they will be able to go
back to work that they did a few years ago and still do something with
it.  Persistence is one of the powers of open formats.  Your application
vendors can come and go but the formats hang in there.  Think about why
we have MIDI and not proprietary formats from every vendor.  You can mix
and match synthesizers, sequencers and controllers.  You don't have to
convert everything if you go out and buy a new keyboard or if the
manufacturer goes out of business.

Sometimes there is no standardized format.  Look at the ubiquitous
Microsoft DOC format.  The best that application vendors can hope to do
with such a format is import and export the format.  There is no legal
or technical reason that applications can't contain converters to and
from Finale format.  Finale has control over their implementation, but
can not prevent others from reverse engineering the file format.  This
is similar to the situation with Adobe and Postscript or PDF.  Whether
applications are available that do this is another story all together. 
Note, sometimes formats can not be generated without violating software
patents.  This is especially true with compressed binary formats.  A
notable case is MP3.  This problem never arises with human readable
formats.

So, if it looks like there is wide availability of readers of a
proprietary format and no viable public standard format, then you have
to use the proprietary format.  However, if a choice exists, I would
recommend going with the public standard every time.

In the case of LilyPond, the lack of interest in writing to Finale or
Sibelius on the part of the author is certainly annoying.  It is the
common problem of open-source software; the developers work on what
interests them.  But the price is right 8^) and the author's response is
always "if it interests you, write it!"

BTW, I also agree with the notion that most OCR for music is pretty
poor.  However, it is getting much better.  There was a time when OCR
for printed text was really bad.  Now it is reliable enough that
companies routinely use it to get data from forms into databases.  Maybe
music OCR will reach that point too.  In any case, I just used it as an
example.

I think I let this ramble far too long.

Dick

On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 15:33, R.A.S. wrote:
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 09/01/2003 at 21:11 Richard Schoeller wrote:
> 
> >Of course the problem with Sibelius or Finale format is that you would
> >have to be using a computer that can run programs that can deal with
> 
> Sure, but if you're going to be obtaining these materials (in whatever
> form) _online_, you'd have to have a computer in the first place, or at
> least easy access. Shouldn't be too much hassle then to obtain the relevant
> software (if it's not already available). Granted, Sibelius has a
> relatively steep price tag.. But generally, Sibelius and, to a lesser
> extent Finale are in pretty ubiquitous use these days, and the former
> happens to have become the "industry standard". And the great flexibility
> and veratility of these programs could save people an awful lot of work and
> ultimately even expense.
> 
> >those formats.  The nice thing about PDF or MIDI is that support for
> >them is that support for them is ubiquitous.
> 
> Sure. In the end, it's a toss-up between ubiquitous support and greater
> flexibility and versatility, at least from an end-user perspective.
> 
> >Of course MIDI doesn't retain the typesetting information and PDF
> 
> Midi can be very awkward actually. The only app that seems to be able to
> make a resonable job of translating midi to score is, in my experience,
> Sibelius. And even then, you often have to keep listening to the midi file
> to edit the score into shape. (Finale tends to make a complete hash of
> things when importing midi, as do apps like Cubase and Logic Audio in re:
> of converting to score - e.g., passages in triple time or faster usually
> end up as chords in double time!)
> 
> >doesn't contain the musical information.  MusicXML looks pretty
> >promising.  The latest version of Finale can produce this and there are
> >about 10 other programs that support it and the number is growing.  One
> >of them is SharpEye which purports to be able to convert a scanned image
> >into MIDI or MusicXML.  I haven't used these so I can't comment on their
> >effectiveness.
> 
> Hmm, judging by my experiences with Neuratron Photoscore Pro/Sibelius,
> musical OCR still has a pretty _long_ way to go, sadly. Manuscript is out
> completely, and even a printed score usually needs so much editing that
> I've often found it quicker to transcribe manually.
> 
> 
> Richard
> 
> 

On Tue, 2003-01-14 at 15:33, R.A.S. wrote: 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 09/01/2003 at 21:21 Richard Schoeller wrote:
> 
> >Hey, never mind!  I just found out that LilyPond has a converter from
> >Finale ETF format into LilyPond.  So, I guess I could deal with Finale.
> >
> >Of course the author of LilyPond is a serious free software bigot and
> >adamantly refuses to write a converter from his format to one for a
> >proprietary publishing tool.
> 
> Well, that's hardly a smart move as he's practically precluding his program
> from serious use in many circumstances. If a program can't "talk to"
> industry standard apps by at least importing/exporting their formats, it
> might as well not exist at all, sadly. OTOH, bigotry does not of course
> necessarily come into this, as saving to a proprietary format usually
> involves having to pay licence fees...
> 
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
Dick Schoeller
mailto:schoeller (at) attbi(dot)com
http://schoeller.ne.client2.attbi.com/
781.449.5476

"Er ist ein Narr, der meint, es sei nicht schad, das Kind
auszuschütten mit dem Bad"         - Thomas Murner 1512


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