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RE: Order of National Anthems

hi there

if you know of anyone that was involved in an
altercation we at con u hillel are collecting peoples
stories to fome possible legal action against the

if the first hand accounts are of this nature let me
know and ill put you in touch with the proper people

avi finegold

--- Mel Korn <mkorn (at) rogers(dot)com> wrote:
> Here in Canada, at all NHL/NBA/Major League Baseball
> games, the order is
> TSSB followed by O Canada (even in Montreal!). I
> rarely see anyone sining
> the lyrics anymore (sometimes I see more mouthing of
> TSSB than O Canada). Is
> that the case in the US... do people no longer pay
> attention to the anthems?
> Are they just a signal that the game is to begin?
> On the other hand, Hatikvah is usually sung with
> great feeling at public
> events. (including the Jewish students at Montreal's
> Concordia University
> who were locked down by the pro palestinian rabble
> rioting this past
> Tuesday). If anyone would like a first person
> account of the riot which
> followed the cancellation of Netanyahu's speech,
> please contact me off list.
> I have 2 accounts from students who were there).
> Gmae Tov
> Mel.
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> [mailto:owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org]On Behalf Of
> SamWeiss (at) bellatlantic(dot)net
>   Sent: Tue, September 10, 2002 11:14 PM
>   To: World music from a Jewish slant
>   Subject: Re: Order of National Anthems
>   Relax and rest assured that you probably will be
> criticized by someone in
> the audience regardless of which order you choose. 
> As you might imagine,
> cantors confront this issue on a regular basis, and
> this question came up
> not too long ago on our discussion group.  I offer
> the following synopsis of
> the replies for your entertainment more than for
> your guidance.
>   G'mar Tov
>   -Sam Weiss
>   I'm looking for a definitive answer - when singing
> both anthems, which
> comes
>   first, Hatikvah or the Star Spangled Banner? And
> what is the rationale
>   behind your answer?
>   Thanks.
> --
>   The "Halakha" is that the host country allows the
> visiting country's
> anthem
>   to be sung first.  But because this can be
> interpreted to mean that the
>   visiting country is more important in the eyes of
> the participants than
> the
>   host country, the host country's anthem is most
> often sung first.
> Therefore
>   the practical "Halakha" is 1) Star  2)  HaTikvah.
> --
>   It has been my experience that the National Anthem
> of the host country is
> sung
>   first, and then the other anthems, the rationale
> being the acknowledgement
> of
>   the country in which you stand at the moment as
> your host. I hope this is
>   helpful to you.
> --
>   At NHL games played in the USA, "O Canada" is
> always sung first, followed
> by TSSB. I have been told that, just as no other
> country's flag is allowed
> to be flown higher than the US flag on American
> soil, no other country's
> Anthem can follow the US Anthem. Ivan, as a proud
> ex-Marine, can you
> enlighten us?
> --
>   Regarding the correct and standard US protocol
> regarding the singing of
> the US national anthem where a "foreign" anthem is
> also sung, the following
> is the rule: "nothing follows the Star Spangled
> Banner", which means
> Hatikvah is sung FIRST. This rule however is
> reversed when the President (
> of the US, not your shul!! ) is present, in which
> case the US national
> anthem is sung first.
> --
>    >"foreign" anthem is also sung,
>    >the following is the rule: "nothing follows
>    >the Star Spangled Banner", which means
>    >Hatikvah is sung FIRST
>   I heard it's the other way around-NOTHING preceeds
> the USA anthem so
> Hatikva is second-it's always been set up that way
> when they have me do it,
> I dont have to say anything and I always heard that
> was correct
> --
>   Just an observation -
>   If we're only singing two nations' anthems, you
> always have a 50% chance
> of
>   doing it right, whatever your choice ;-)
> --
>   When I sang on the USS Intrepid for a function, or
> for the Army, and most
>   importantly for a Brigadier General who is a
> regular Shabbat attendee, I
> was
>   instructed to sing the Star Spangled banner first.
> The only exception is
> when
>   protocol involves heads of state etc. at a
> ceremony.
>   If anyone has a difference of opinion I'll give
> you the 4 star general's
>   phone number!
> --
>   wouldn't the hatikvah come first in America?
> Unless, your thinking is that
> in
>   a synagogue the host is Judaism and the visitor is
> America. My experiences
>   have been that hatikava is sung first.  Isn't it
> interesting that even a
>   secular question doesn't have a definitive answer.
> --
>   BTW, back home in the old country (Australia) we
> used to sing only
> Hatikvah
>   at Jewish functions.  I don't remember ever
> singing two anthems.  Although
> I
>   vaguely recall that we may have sometimes sung the
> Australian anthem at
> the
>   beginning of the event, and Hatkivah at the end
> (or the other way round).
> --
>   I was also under the impression that just as no
> flag flies above or to the
>   right of the American flag, my experience was that
> TSSB preceded any other
>   anthem.
>   In reviewing a page from the Hadassah National
> Organization Department on
>   "Kashrut, Observance & Protocol," they quote the
> following citation,
>   possibly from the "U.S. Dept. of State:
> information embodied in Public Law
>   829-77th Congress:
>   ...ANTHEMS - The Star Spangled Banner FOLLOWS the
> foreign country's
> anthem.
>   Therefore, at any public function, Hatikvah should
> be sung FIRST, The Star
>   Spangled Banner, LAST.
>   This holds true even when the guest speaker or
> visiting dignitary is an
>   Israeli.
> visiting artist or group
>   (orchestra or chorus) from a foreign land PERFORMS
> the two anthems, the
>   anthem of the country of the visiting artist or
> group is played last.
>   The question remains: Is the citation in reference
> to the Flag Code ONLY
>   that precedes this section, or does it apply to
> anthems as well?  I should
>   be getting clarification by tomorrow.
>   The U.S. Flag Code "designate[s] The Star Spangled
> Banner as the national
>   anthem of the United States of America, all
> present except those in
> uniform
>   should stand at attention facing the flag with the
> right hand over the
>   heart.  Men not in uniform should remove their
> headdress with their right
>   hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand
> being over the heart.
>   Persons in uniform should render the military
> salute at the first note of
>   the anthem and retain this position until the last
> note.  When the flag is
>   not displayed, those present should face toward
> the music and act in the
>   same manner they would if the flag were displayed
> there" (Ch. 1, Sec.
>   170-171).
> --
>   There is an international protocol for anthems.
> The host country is
>   always last. As Stephen said; go to any sports
> event between a US and
>   Canadian team to verify this. The only real
> question comes up when more
>   than two are sung. Depending on whether there are
> any dignitaries
>   present, i.e. Prime Minister, Royalty, Presidents,
> the anthems prior to
>   the host are done in a pecking order of who is
> there. By the way,
>   because of our own prejudices, a President if if
> not democratically
>   elected, out ranks a Prime Minister. IF you
> remember the "so called"
>   peace signing between Israel and Egypt, the order
> was as follows:
>   Egypt's anthem because of President Sadat,
> Israel's anthem because of
>   Prime Minister Begin and last the Star Spangled
> banner, host anthem.
>   This means that for most of us when requested to
> sing anthem, the order
>   should always be Hatikvah followed by The Star
> Spangled Banner.
> --
>   Thanks to all of you who responded to my inquiries
> regarding whether to
> sing
>   Hatikvah or the Star-Spangled Banner first at a
> program or service. Your
>   answers were varied, though they basically fell
> into two categories:
>   Hatikvah first or The Star-Spangled Banner first.
> (Surprise, surprise!)
>   I did contact the Office of Protocol at
>   the State Department. The woman I spoke to was not
> aware of any printed
>   document detailing the protocol, but said that as
> a matter of practice,
> the
>   anthem of the visiting country is always played or
> sung first, followed by
>   the Star-Spangled Banner. She referred to the
> recent state visit by the
>   president of Mexico, at which the Mexican anthem
> was played first,
> followed
>   by the S.S.B. She said that this is done as a
> matter of courtesy to the
>   visitor.
>   This confirms what several of you indicated in
> your postings.
>   The reason I asked the question is because, for a
> number of years, I
> always
>   sang the S.S.B. first. Several years ago, I was
> corrected by a congregant
>   who was a past national vice-president of Women's
> League; I figured that
>   with all the events she had attended, she must
> know what she was talking
>   about. So, I changed and began singing Hatikvah
> first.
>   Earlier this week, I was questioned by a member of
> my current congregation
>   who thought that I had sung the anthems in the
> wrong order at a synagogue
>   event. So began my quest for "the correct answer."
>   Notwithstanding the "exceptions" which some of you
> noted, i.e., singing
> for
>   a brigadier-general on a battleship, or if the
> President is present (we
>   should only have that good fortune at some point
> in our careers!), it
> seems
>   clear that the proper protocol in most cases is
> for Hatikvah to be sung
>   first, followed by The Strar-Spangled Banner.

the whole world is a narrow bridge
     and the main thing is to have no fear  -rabbi nachman
the numerical equation of ahavah in hebrew is 13(a prime number)
     be'ahava is 2(bet) x 13
     when two complete and unbreakable (prime) loves come together in 
love(be'ahava), you have 26
     this shows that god (equivalent to 26) enters into a relationship only if 
there is a complete unbreakable selflessness to the other    -avi finegold 
and one one hand he tattooed the word love/and on the other the word fear   
-bruce springsteen

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