RE: Order of National Anthems

[Mel Korn <mkorn...>]

Here in Canada, at all NHL/NBA/Major League Baseball games, the order is
TSSB followed by O Canada (even in Montreal!). I rarely see anyone sining
the lyrics anymore (sometimes I see more mouthing of TSSB than O Canada). Is
that the case in the US... do people no longer pay attention to the anthems?
Are they just a signal that the game is to begin?

On the other hand, Hatikvah is usually sung with great feeling at public
events. (including the Jewish students at Montreal's Concordia University
who were locked down by the pro palestinian rabble rioting this past
Tuesday). If anyone would like a first person account of the riot which
followed the cancellation of Netanyahu's speech, please contact me off list.
I have 2 accounts from students who were there).

Gmae Tov
Mel.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
[mailto:owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org]On Behalf Of
SamWeiss (at) bellatlantic(dot)net
  Sent: Tue, September 10, 2002 11:14 PM
  To: World music from a Jewish slant
  Subject: Re: Order of National Anthems


  Relax and rest assured that you probably will be criticized by someone in
the audience regardless of which order you choose.  As you might imagine,
cantors confront this issue on a regular basis, and this question came up
not too long ago on our discussion group.  I offer the following synopsis of
the replies for your entertainment more than for your guidance.
  G'mar Tov
  -Sam Weiss

  ==========================================================================
  I'm looking for a definitive answer - when singing both anthems, which
comes
  first, Hatikvah or the Star Spangled Banner? And what is the rationale
  behind your answer?
  Thanks.

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  The "Halakha" is that the host country allows the visiting country's
anthem
  to be sung first.  But because this can be interpreted to mean that the
  visiting country is more important in the eyes of the participants than
the
  host country, the host country's anthem is most often sung first.
Therefore
  the practical "Halakha" is 1) Star  2)  HaTikvah.

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  It has been my experience that the National Anthem of the host country is
sung
  first, and then the other anthems, the rationale being the acknowledgement
of
  the country in which you stand at the moment as your host. I hope this is
  helpful to you.

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  At NHL games played in the USA, "O Canada" is always sung first, followed
by TSSB. I have been told that, just as no other country's flag is allowed
to be flown higher than the US flag on American soil, no other country's
Anthem can follow the US Anthem. Ivan, as a proud ex-Marine, can you
enlighten us?

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  Regarding the correct and standard US protocol regarding the singing of
the US national anthem where a "foreign" anthem is also sung, the following
is the rule: "nothing follows the Star Spangled Banner", which means
Hatikvah is sung FIRST. This rule however is reversed when the President (
of the US, not your shul!! ) is present, in which case the US national
anthem is sung first.

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   >"foreign" anthem is also sung,
   >the following is the rule: "nothing follows
   >the Star Spangled Banner", which means
   >Hatikvah is sung FIRST

  I heard it's the other way around-NOTHING preceeds the USA anthem so
Hatikva is second-it's always been set up that way when they have me do it,
I dont have to say anything and I always heard that was correct

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  Just an observation -
  If we're only singing two nations' anthems, you always have a 50% chance
of
  doing it right, whatever your choice ;-)

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  When I sang on the USS Intrepid for a function, or for the Army, and most
  importantly for a Brigadier General who is a regular Shabbat attendee, I
was
  instructed to sing the Star Spangled banner first. The only exception is
when
  protocol involves heads of state etc. at a ceremony.
  If anyone has a difference of opinion I'll give you the 4 star general's
  phone number!

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  wouldn't the hatikvah come first in America? Unless, your thinking is that
in
  a synagogue the host is Judaism and the visitor is America. My experiences
  have been that hatikava is sung first.  Isn't it interesting that even a
  secular question doesn't have a definitive answer.

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  BTW, back home in the old country (Australia) we used to sing only
Hatikvah
  at Jewish functions.  I don't remember ever singing two anthems.  Although
I
  vaguely recall that we may have sometimes sung the Australian anthem at
the
  beginning of the event, and Hatkivah at the end (or the other way round).

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  I was also under the impression that just as no flag flies above or to the
  right of the American flag, my experience was that TSSB preceded any other
  anthem.

  In reviewing a page from the Hadassah National Organization Department on
  "Kashrut, Observance & Protocol," they quote the following citation,
  possibly from the "U.S. Dept. of State: information embodied in Public Law
  829-77th Congress:

  ...ANTHEMS - The Star Spangled Banner FOLLOWS the foreign country's
anthem.
  Therefore, at any public function, Hatikvah should be sung FIRST, The Star
  Spangled Banner, LAST.

  This holds true even when the guest speaker or visiting dignitary is an
  Israeli.

  THERE IS ONLY ONE EXCEPTION TO THIS RULE: When a visiting artist or group
  (orchestra or chorus) from a foreign land PERFORMS the two anthems, the
  anthem of the country of the visiting artist or group is played last.

  The question remains: Is the citation in reference to the Flag Code ONLY
  that precedes this section, or does it apply to anthems as well?  I should
  be getting clarification by tomorrow.

  The U.S. Flag Code "designate[s] The Star Spangled Banner as the national
  anthem of the United States of America, all present except those in
uniform
  should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the
  heart.  Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right
  hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart.
  Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of
  the anthem and retain this position until the last note.  When the flag is
  not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the
  same manner they would if the flag were displayed there" (Ch. 1, Sec.
  170-171).

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  There is an international protocol for anthems. The host country is
  always last. As Stephen said; go to any sports event between a US and
  Canadian team to verify this. The only real question comes up when more
  than two are sung. Depending on whether there are any dignitaries
  present, i.e. Prime Minister, Royalty, Presidents, the anthems prior to
  the host are done in a pecking order of who is there. By the way,
  because of our own prejudices, a President if if not democratically
  elected, out ranks a Prime Minister. IF you remember the "so called"
  peace signing between Israel and Egypt, the order was as follows:
  Egypt's anthem because of President Sadat, Israel's anthem because of
  Prime Minister Begin and last the Star Spangled banner, host anthem.

  This means that for most of us when requested to sing anthem, the order
  should always be Hatikvah followed by The Star Spangled Banner.


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  Thanks to all of you who responded to my inquiries regarding whether to
sing
  Hatikvah or the Star-Spangled Banner first at a program or service. Your
  answers were varied, though they basically fell into two categories:
  Hatikvah first or The Star-Spangled Banner first. (Surprise, surprise!)

  I did contact the Office of Protocol at
  the State Department. The woman I spoke to was not aware of any printed
  document detailing the protocol, but said that as a matter of practice,
the
  anthem of the visiting country is always played or sung first, followed by
  the Star-Spangled Banner. She referred to the recent state visit by the
  president of Mexico, at which the Mexican anthem was played first,
followed
  by the S.S.B. She said that this is done as a matter of courtesy to the
  visitor.
  This confirms what several of you indicated in your postings.

  The reason I asked the question is because, for a number of years, I
always
  sang the S.S.B. first. Several years ago, I was corrected by a congregant
  who was a past national vice-president of Women's League; I figured that
  with all the events she had attended, she must know what she was talking
  about. So, I changed and began singing Hatikvah first.

  Earlier this week, I was questioned by a member of my current congregation
  who thought that I had sung the anthems in the wrong order at a synagogue
  event. So began my quest for "the correct answer."

  Notwithstanding the "exceptions" which some of you noted, i.e., singing
for
  a brigadier-general on a battleship, or if the President is present (we
  should only have that good fortune at some point in our careers!), it
seems
  clear that the proper protocol in most cases is for Hatikvah to be sung
  first, followed by The Strar-Spangled Banner.