Re: Verdi and Jewish music

[Joel Bresler <jbresler...>]

I'll take the Double Jeopardy question first.

99.99% that your recording is:

Yehoram Gaon
Romantic Ballads from the Great Judeo Espagnol Heritage (Romansot B'ladino)
NMC 63379-2
Also released on CBS S 63379

Ripe orchestrations and weird pronunciation -- certainly has all the hallmarks!

OK, now to the rest. my comments below.

At 10:25 PM 2/11/00 +0000, you wrote:
>Robert,
>
>Well pointed out. This coincidence has always struck me as
>remarkable, because it goes beyond a few shared notes: the word
>'Addio' in Verdi and 'Adio' in the Ladino song, both sung to exactly
>the same intervals, cannot be fortuitous.
>
>Now, has the Ladino song been dated?

Well, I'd date it to sometime after La Traviata was released <G>

>I would not for a minute suggest
>that the (presumably unknown) Sephardic composer copied Verdi,

I would...

>but to
>assume automatically that a Ladino song cannot be younger than
>one-hundred-and fifty years old would make me uncomfortable.

Most "Ladino" (read, Sephardic) songs were set to music of the surrounding 
community and did NOT originate with the Sephardim.

>I
>dearly love the Ladino repertoire, but the question that irks me is
>this: do we rule out the possibility of new songs being composed? Do
>we only accept a finite number of old, canonised pieces as Ladino?

There is no official canon, and in any event, very few if any of these 
songs are steeped in the antiquity that they are commonly accorded. While 
the _lyrics_ to the romansas can be medieval, the melodies are not, and the 
lyrics to all the other songs are much more contemporary.

Jack Mayesh did a couple dozen recordings in mid-century on 78s setting 
Greek and Turkish songs to his own (Judeo-Spanish) lyrics.

More recently, see:

Koen-Serano, Matilda (lyrics) and Haim Tsur (Music)
Nostaljía, Muevas Kantigas Djudeo-Espanyolas
CD235
1995
Ramat-Gan       Israel

>If the answer is yes, we rule out new composition, I would be
>saddened beyond description. If, on the other hand, we are open to
>the idea of this repertoire replenishing itself, then perhaps we
>cannot automatically assume that Verdi borrowed from the song in
>question.
>
>I hope someone has ideas or information on this point.
>
>As a footnote, may I please ask an archival question. My
>cassette recording of that song was pirated many years ago from a
>friend who himself had pirated it from an unknown source. He didn't
>know who the performer was. It is a male voice of bright, almost
>tenor-like quality, and the instrumental arrangements are glossy and
>orchestrally lavish. He doesn't sound like a Spanish speaker - for
>example, he double-rolls the single 'r' in 'querida'. The opening
>song in the album is the gorgeous one that goes  'Abre tu puerta
>cerrada que en tu patio luz no hay' and the last is 'Abram Avinu'.
>Are these enough clues to identify him? Who is he?
>
>I trust there is enough expertise on this mail-list to address both
>questions.
>
>Agustín
>
>
> > From:          "Robert Cohen" <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
> > To:            World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) 
> > shamash(dot)org>
> > Subject:       Re: Verdi and Jewish music
> > Date:          Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:03:11 PST
> > Reply-to:      jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>
> > This is fascinating, as Verdi's "Addio, del passato" from LA TRAVIATA also
> > resembles, and may well (perhaps consciously) borrow from, a Jewish 
> melody,
> > namely the Ladino standard "Adio, querida."
> >
> > I wonder what (evidently) so attracted Verdi to Jewish music.
> >
> >
> > >From: Agustin(dot)Fernandez (at) newcastle(dot)ac(dot)uk
> >
> > >Has Robert Wiener had a full  answer to his question on Shulamis
> > >yet? I certainly don't have a full answer, but Mark Slobin mentions
> > >another song in page 190 of Tenement Songs: the Popular Music of the
> > >Jewish Immigrants (University of Illinois Press, 1982).
> > >
> > >This song, Slobin informs us, is entitled 'Ot der brunen, ot der'. He
> > >goes on to show similarities between this tune and 'Ah. fors'e lui'
> > >from Verdi's  La traviata. However, the tune he quotes next to
> > >the Verdi is confusingly titled 'The Oath' and not 'The Well' or
> > >anything that may resemble what we are told the Yiddish title means.
> > >I leave those who know Yiddish, or the plot of Shulamis, or both, to
> > >clarify this inconsistency.
> > >
> > >Agustín
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Dr A. Fernández
>University of Newcastle Music Department
>Armstrong Building
>Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU
>
>Telephone +44 (0)191 222 7636
>Fax 0191 222 5242
>
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