Re: promiscuous fusionizers

[robert wiener <wiener...>]

I did.  I couldn't find it there.  Tell me if you can.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Trudi Goodman <goobietheg (at) hotmail(dot)com>
To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: promiscuous fusionizers


>
>check Bartlett's Quotations.
>I do believe that it's Burke's though.
>
>>From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
>>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>Subject: Re: promiscuous fusionizers
>>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:27:22 -0500
>>
>>Here's an off-topic question inspired by Eliott's post and the
>>erudition of the participants on this list.
>>
>>Can anyone provide me with an attribution from a generally accepted
>>source for the following quote:
>>?The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
>>do nothing?  (or a variation on the theme).
>>(Edmund Burke is often credited with the saying, but I have not been
>>able to find a source worthy of footnoting.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: eliott kahn <elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
>>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:13 AM
>>Subject: Re: promiscuous fusionizers
>>
>>
>> >I applaud Mr. Krakowski's stand for originality. In my estimation,
>>some of
>> >the greatest music in world history has been the result of an
organic
>> >fusion of styles. Just to name a few: American Jazz, Salsa, and
the
>>works
>> >of J.S. Bach and Handel--both of whom continually employed several
>>national
>> >styles.
>> >
>> >But, I would also issue a word of caution by reiterating the
words,
>> >"organic fusion." One should be fully immersed in both (or more)
>>styles
>> >that one hopes to fuse, otherwise you may produce something that
>>deserves
>> >what an old composition professor of mine used to call "the
eclectic
>>chair."
>> >
>> >Or in the words of Alexander Pope: "A little bit of knowledge is a
>> >dangerous thing/ Drink deep at rhe Pyrrhean spring."
>> >
>> >Eliott Kahn
>> >
>> >At 09:34 AM 12/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Henry Sapoznik wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >I think klezmer suffers from both high artification and from
the
>> >>> promiscuous
>> >>> >fusionizers who meld it with music forms they understand far
>>better than
>> >>> they
>> >>> >do klezmer.
>> >>> >IMnotsoHO...
>> >>>
>> >>> Very well said and right on target.   "Promiscuous fusionizers"
>> >>
>> >>H-mm.  So the creative non-conformist who expresses him/herself
>>witha lot of
>> >>personal and contemporary style, and not from an expected
position
>>based on
>> >>archived yiddishkayt-in-a-box nostalgia or novelty, is now
musically
>>immoral,
>> >>too?  Interesting concept.
>> >>
>> >>In my experience, the word "promiscuous" is usually trotted out
by
>>the envious
>> >>and the vengeful in an attempt to besmirch somebody's character
>>because they
>> >>are perceived as having too much or the wrong kind of close
>>interpersonal
>> >>contact.
>> >>I don't like it.
>> >>
>> >>Please, -- Kabalas, Alan Eder/Pesach Posse, Klezperanto, Neshama,
et
>>al.,
>> >>keep making more great, original and  "promiscuous" music.
>> >>
>> >>Remember to practice safe sax.
>> >>
>> >>Wolf Krakowski
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Kame'a Media
>> >>http://www.kamea.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> - I really
>> >>> like that phrase very much.   They are the ones filling up most
of
>>the
>> >>> concert halls, because where else can such artifice go today?
I
>>can say
>> >>> that very little of it is really creative and I have been to
the
>>last
>> >>> Ashkenaz Festival where some of the best of that was presented.
>>(There
>> >>> was one moment [in the concert of all new compositions] where
the
>>noisy
>> >>> jazz in the all new compositions program was so annoying that I
>>truly felt
>> >>> like throwing a Molotov Cocktail just to stop that pure noise.
I
>>soon
>> >>> found out that many others were equally annoyed.)  There are
>>reasons why
>> >>> opera companies know that they can present the same operas year
>>after year,
>> >>> and theaters succeed in showing revivals and mothers keep on
>>baking the
>> >>> same meatloaf for generations or people continue listening to
the
>>same
>> >>> classical musical repertory.   When people have refined a
>>grammatical form
>> >>> to become a classics in that genre, they respect and cherich
it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Reyzl
>> >>>
>> >>> ----------
>> >>> From:  ganzl azoi freyl [SMTP:d6l (at) hotmail(dot)com]
>> >>> Sent:  Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:27 PM
>> >>> To:  World music from a Jewish slant
>> >>> Subject:  re: klez go classical
>> >>>
>> >>> i'm flattered to be described as "difficult to keep on a leash"
>><smile>
>> >>> and 'course i don't mind being shredded and reassembled, but i
>>would prefer
>> >>> my tangents and asides be less central to your response,
josh...
>> >>>
>> >>> my basic point (as distinctly opposed to your 'socratic
summary')
>>has
>> >>> always
>> >>> been about *emphasis*, not exclusion (the first time "banning"
>>anything
>> >>> came
>> >>> up in this thread was when you put it in my mouth--please take
it
>>right
>> >>> back
>> >>> out, 'kay?).  i'm in no way opposed to sitting in a concert
hall
>>listening
>> >>> to klezmer (or tuvan 'throat singing' or stravinski for that
>>matter).  what
>> >>> i see as potentially dangerous is the concert hall becoming the
>>*only* or
>> >>> *primary* site for klezmer music.
>> >>>       the 'change and development' in music which i've said is
>>necessary
>> >>> can
>> >>> happen in any context.... *but* when it mainly happens in
concert
>>halls it
>> >>> seems to me far more likely to lose its connections to other
parts
>>of the
>> >>> culture it's rooted in than when the experimentation is
happening
>>in a
>> >>> variety of venues (among which the concert hall should of
course
>>be
>> >>> present,
>> >>> but not dominant).
>> >>>
>> >>> incidentally, you imply that there's a contradiction between
>>dancing to and
>> >>> listening to music.  if anything, i'd want to argue that the
>>opposite is
>> >>> true-- you just *can't* dance without paying serious attention
to
>>the
>> >>> musicians; it's easy to sit and drift...  it's also worth
>>mentioning that
>> >>> venues with space to dance tend also to accomodate those who
just
>>want to
>> >>> sit, while concert halls tend to frown upon dancing (with some
>> >>> exceptions--the 'in the fiddler's house' tour being the first
to
>>occur to
>> >>> me).
>> >>>
>> >>> finally, it seems more than a bit disingenuous to describe
>>"listening" in
>> >>> the concert-hall sense as part of the traditional wedding
context
>>of
>> >>> klezmer.  then again, it seems thoroughly unnecessary to appeal
to
>>that
>> >>> context to establish something as worthwhile for klezmer in
1999
>>(yes, i do
>> >>> think that concert-hall type listening is worthwhile)
>> >>>    --unless, that is, you want to insist that all klezmer
contexts
>>should
>> >>> include dancing, wine, and a rabbi (which is probably closer to
my
>>position
>> >>> <wink>)--
>> >>>
>> >>> that's it for me....
>> >>> ideologically yours,
>> >>> zayt gezunt,
>> >>>
>> >>> daniel
>> >>>
>> >>> p.s. "hidden agenda"?  what's *hidden*?
>> >>>
>> >>> p.p.s.
>> >>> for reference, snipped for concision--
>> >>> josh wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >That "variety of directions" excludes the classical venue,
>>seemingly
>> >>> >because it doesn't allow for you to breakdance and also
because
>>it
>> >>> >encourages the act of listening (in your former email, you
refer
>>to >this
>> >>> >as the "sit-in-yer-seat experience").
>> >>> >
>> >>> >In spite of the fact that listening was a part of the original
>>context
>> >>> (the
>> >>> >wedding) in which klezmer music developed, and represents a
>>further
>> >>> >possibility for "change and development," it >is banned from
your
>>list of
>> >>> >outlets which allow klezmer music to >evolve.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Rather than antithesize the contradictions in your argument, I
>>would
>> >>> >rather manipulate them into a synthesized Socratic summary,
using
>> >>>
>> >>> >In spite of actually sympathizing with some of your
sentiments,
>>Dan,
>> >>> >it's hard to resist uncovering a hidden agenda in your
ideology.
>>Josh
>> >>>
>> >>> ______________________________________________________
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>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>>jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+
>> >