Re: promiscuous fusionizers

[Trudi Goodman <goobietheg...>]

check Bartlett's Quotations.
I do believe that it's Burke's though.

>From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Subject: Re: promiscuous fusionizers
>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:27:22 -0500
>
>Here's an off-topic question inspired by Eliott's post and the
>erudition of the participants on this list.
>
>Can anyone provide me with an attribution from a generally accepted
>source for the following quote:
>?The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
>do nothing?  (or a variation on the theme).
>(Edmund Burke is often credited with the saying, but I have not been
>able to find a source worthy of footnoting.
>
>Bob
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: eliott kahn <elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:13 AM
>Subject: Re: promiscuous fusionizers
>
>
> >I applaud Mr. Krakowski's stand for originality. In my estimation,
>some of
> >the greatest music in world history has been the result of an organic
> >fusion of styles. Just to name a few: American Jazz, Salsa, and the
>works
> >of J.S. Bach and Handel--both of whom continually employed several
>national
> >styles.
> >
> >But, I would also issue a word of caution by reiterating the words,
> >"organic fusion." One should be fully immersed in both (or more)
>styles
> >that one hopes to fuse, otherwise you may produce something that
>deserves
> >what an old composition professor of mine used to call "the eclectic
>chair."
> >
> >Or in the words of Alexander Pope: "A little bit of knowledge is a
> >dangerous thing/ Drink deep at rhe Pyrrhean spring."
> >
> >Eliott Kahn
> >
> >At 09:34 AM 12/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Henry Sapoznik wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >I think klezmer suffers from both high artification and from the
> >>> promiscuous
> >>> >fusionizers who meld it with music forms they understand far
>better than
> >>> they
> >>> >do klezmer.
> >>> >IMnotsoHO...
> >>>
> >>> Very well said and right on target.   "Promiscuous fusionizers"
> >>
> >>H-mm.  So the creative non-conformist who expresses him/herself
>witha lot of
> >>personal and contemporary style, and not from an expected  position
>based on
> >>archived yiddishkayt-in-a-box nostalgia or novelty, is now musically
>immoral,
> >>too?  Interesting concept.
> >>
> >>In my experience, the word "promiscuous" is usually trotted out by
>the envious
> >>and the vengeful in an attempt to besmirch somebody's character
>because they
> >>are perceived as having too much or the wrong kind of close
>interpersonal
> >>contact.
> >>I don't like it.
> >>
> >>Please, -- Kabalas, Alan Eder/Pesach Posse, Klezperanto, Neshama, et
>al.,
> >>keep making more great, original and  "promiscuous" music.
> >>
> >>Remember to practice safe sax.
> >>
> >>Wolf Krakowski
> >>
> >>
> >>Kame'a Media
> >>http://www.kamea.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> - I really
> >>> like that phrase very much.   They are the ones filling up most of
>the
> >>> concert halls, because where else can such artifice go today?   I
>can say
> >>> that very little of it is really creative and I have been to the
>last
> >>> Ashkenaz Festival where some of the best of that was presented.
>(There
> >>> was one moment [in the concert of all new compositions] where the
>noisy
> >>> jazz in the all new compositions program was so annoying that I
>truly felt
> >>> like throwing a Molotov Cocktail just to stop that pure noise.  I
>soon
> >>> found out that many others were equally annoyed.)  There are
>reasons why
> >>> opera companies know that they can present the same operas year
>after year,
> >>> and theaters succeed in showing revivals and mothers keep on
>baking the
> >>> same meatloaf for generations or people continue listening to the
>same
> >>> classical musical repertory.   When people have refined a
>grammatical form
> >>> to become a classics in that genre, they respect and cherich it.
> >>>
> >>> Reyzl
> >>>
> >>> ----------
> >>> From:  ganzl azoi freyl [SMTP:d6l (at) hotmail(dot)com]
> >>> Sent:  Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:27 PM
> >>> To:  World music from a Jewish slant
> >>> Subject:  re: klez go classical
> >>>
> >>> i'm flattered to be described as "difficult to keep on a leash"
><smile>
> >>> and 'course i don't mind being shredded and reassembled, but i
>would prefer
> >>> my tangents and asides be less central to your response, josh...
> >>>
> >>> my basic point (as distinctly opposed to your 'socratic summary')
>has
> >>> always
> >>> been about *emphasis*, not exclusion (the first time "banning"
>anything
> >>> came
> >>> up in this thread was when you put it in my mouth--please take it
>right
> >>> back
> >>> out, 'kay?).  i'm in no way opposed to sitting in a concert hall
>listening
> >>> to klezmer (or tuvan 'throat singing' or stravinski for that
>matter).  what
> >>> i see as potentially dangerous is the concert hall becoming the
>*only* or
> >>> *primary* site for klezmer music.
> >>>       the 'change and development' in music which i've said is
>necessary
> >>> can
> >>> happen in any context.... *but* when it mainly happens in concert
>halls it
> >>> seems to me far more likely to lose its connections to other parts
>of the
> >>> culture it's rooted in than when the experimentation is happening
>in a
> >>> variety of venues (among which the concert hall should of course
>be
> >>> present,
> >>> but not dominant).
> >>>
> >>> incidentally, you imply that there's a contradiction between
>dancing to and
> >>> listening to music.  if anything, i'd want to argue that the
>opposite is
> >>> true-- you just *can't* dance without paying serious attention to
>the
> >>> musicians; it's easy to sit and drift...  it's also worth
>mentioning that
> >>> venues with space to dance tend also to accomodate those who just
>want to
> >>> sit, while concert halls tend to frown upon dancing (with some
> >>> exceptions--the 'in the fiddler's house' tour being the first to
>occur to
> >>> me).
> >>>
> >>> finally, it seems more than a bit disingenuous to describe
>"listening" in
> >>> the concert-hall sense as part of the traditional wedding context
>of
> >>> klezmer.  then again, it seems thoroughly unnecessary to appeal to
>that
> >>> context to establish something as worthwhile for klezmer in 1999
>(yes, i do
> >>> think that concert-hall type listening is worthwhile)
> >>>    --unless, that is, you want to insist that all klezmer contexts
>should
> >>> include dancing, wine, and a rabbi (which is probably closer to my
>position
> >>> <wink>)--
> >>>
> >>> that's it for me....
> >>> ideologically yours,
> >>> zayt gezunt,
> >>>
> >>> daniel
> >>>
> >>> p.s. "hidden agenda"?  what's *hidden*?
> >>>
> >>> p.p.s.
> >>> for reference, snipped for concision--
> >>> josh wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >That "variety of directions" excludes the classical venue,
>seemingly
> >>> >because it doesn't allow for you to breakdance and also because
>it
> >>> >encourages the act of listening (in your former email, you refer
>to >this
> >>> >as the "sit-in-yer-seat experience").
> >>> >
> >>> >In spite of the fact that listening was a part of the original
>context
> >>> (the
> >>> >wedding) in which klezmer music developed, and represents a
>further
> >>> >possibility for "change and development," it >is banned from your
>list of
> >>> >outlets which allow klezmer music to >evolve.
> >>> >
> >>> >Rather than antithesize the contradictions in your argument, I
>would
> >>> >rather manipulate them into a synthesized Socratic summary, using
> >>>
> >>> >In spite of actually sympathizing with some of your sentiments,
>Dan,
> >>> >it's hard to resist uncovering a hidden agenda in your ideology.
>Josh
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >----------------------
>jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+
> >