Re: Re[2]: Adon Olam

[elkahn <elkahn...>]

Rich:

Ah yes, and Darwin also said that the fittest shall survive. The reason
"Hatikvah," "THe Moldau," "Etz Chaim" (originally carried from Spanish
Jews to Amsterdam, I believe) have survived, is because it's a great tune.
"The Flintstones" is not.

The "Adon Olam" I'm referring to by the way is (in a minor) :
e-e-f-e-d-c-b-a

I myself don't care where a tune comes from, if it's good. However, we
should all bear in mind that music often can bear other connotations. Some
people look at a swastika and see an Anasazi Indian symbol, others look at
a swastika and want to take a baseball bat to the bearer.

I will always associate "The Flintstones" with American Television. I
don't want
to hear it in a synagogue. And -- hear we go -- I don't care to hear all
of this dye-dye-dye pseudo-nigunim sing-along stuff either. It just
doesn't put me in the mood to pray when I hear lousy music. Sorry, it's just 
that lousy music
puts me in a lousy mood, and I try my best to avoid it.

Eliott Kahn



On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 richard_wolpoe (at) ibi(dot)com wrote:

> 
>      Dear Elliot and List,
>         My background is not as deep as many of you out there.  however, 
>      let me share with you a bit of insight that may be useful in 
>      understanding this better.
>      
>         Somewhere somehow tunes are composed, formulated what-have-you.  
>      They are probably folk tunes.  They become popular.  The high-brows 
>      such as Mozert or Smetana or Dvorak incoroporate these melodies into 
>      what might be termed symphonic music.  the spiritual/religous folks 
>      adapt the same type of melody into the liturgy.  The alcoholics and 
>      party animals might make a nice drinking ditty out of it.  The 
>      nationalisists may dapt it for patriotic purposes.
>      
>    Our earlier thread on "hatikvo" is a good case in point.
> 
>         Liturgy:  German congregations (eg Breuer's) uses this tune for v'lu 
> moshi'im on both Chanukkah nad Purim.  Rabbi Breuer was not very Hatikov 
> friednly so zionistic affiliation can be ruled out.
> 
>         Patrotic:  Both Hatikva and Die Moldau
> 
>         High Brow:  Again Die Moldau.
>         
>         Folk tune:  The Romaninan folk tune having to do about donkey and a 
> cart
> (as best as I can recall)
> 
>         Party-goers: Well, it is a well_known fact that Imber enjoyed his 
> schnapps.  <smile>
> 
>         Ok, who stole from whom?  I think the best point to be made (as was 
> made
> by Rabbi/Cantor Steve Langnas in a lecture on this subject) is that the 
> original
> tune was adapted by MANY different composers for diverse use.  The root 
> melody 
> used as a drinking song may have been adapted independently into Adon Olom or 
> into Ein Keloheinu without ANY knopwldge of a parallel adpatation into a 
> drinking song.
> 
>         yes, one may demonstrated taht the drinking melody was used before 
> the 
> liturgical use.  But it is difficult to prove that it was directly adapted 
> from 
> the drinking song; in fact it's unlikely.
> 
>         So, if one were to adapt the William Tell Overture into something 
> liturgical, it could be claimed that the composer was influenced by the Lone 
> Ranger or Tonto, or just perhaps by Rossini.  go prove who's right?!
> 
>         A rather iconoclastic Jew I knew claimed that Maoz Tsur was stolen 
> from 
> a Lutheran hymn  ( I forget the name).  I don't think so.  I think both 
> Martin 
> Luther and the 15/16th century Jews adapted an even older German folk melody  
> for their own diverse purposes.
> 
>         Remember, I believe Darwin said that humans and monkeys are descended 
> from a common ancestor and NOT that humans are descended from monkeys.  There 
> is
> a subtle but useful distinction here.
> 
> Regards,
> Rich Wolpoe
> 
> _____________________________ Reply Separator 
> _________________________________
> Subject: Re: Adon Olam 
> Author:  <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org> at Tcpgate
> Date:    8/10/98 10:20 AM
> 
> 
> I don't believe this is correct. You might be referring to "En Keloheynu," 
> which, first published in 1841 by Julius Freudenthal, resembles a German 
> hymn "Grosser Gott Wir loben Dich." (A.Z. Idelsohn, Jewish Music: Its 
> Historical DEvelopment, 1929, p.239). 
>      
> The final word on the matter should be Eric Werner. In his excellent book 
> on Ashkenazy Jewish music, "A Voice Still Heard" (1976), he mentions the 
> morning High Holiday Adon Olam as being derived from an early GErman tune. 
> But this is not the traditional Sabbath "Adon Olam."
>      
> The point I want to make is that I've always believed that we Jews' genius 
> for borrowing is that we take
> the best of the host culture and siphon it through our own sensibilities 
> and make it our own. (And -- fortunately in the case of America -- the 
> rest of the world's) It's a sad indictment of our religious institutions 
> indeed if we can sing something as banal as "The Fintstones" jingle to 
> "The Lord of All." What's next? "Sugar, Sugar" to "Kol Nidre?"
>      
> Eliott -- not having a good Monday -- Kahn 
> Music Archivist
> Library of the Jewish Theological Seminary 
> New York, New York
>      
>      
>      
>  On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Kame'a Media wrote:
>      
> > Hi Aaron:
> > Re: Adon Olam sung to the tune of "The Flintstones:
> > It might make you feel better to know that the melody to the
> > "traditional" Adon Olam was borrowed from a 17th century German drinking 
> > song.
> > "The more things change, "...etc.
> > Wolf
> > 
> > 
>      
>      
> 
>