Re: Wagner and friends

[Alex Jacobowitz <alexbjacobowitz...>]

B"H Munich

--- Eliott Kahn <Elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU> wrote:
> I've always found the assignment of "meanings" to
> musical material idiotic. 
Really? And when the composer is the assigner?

How someone can
> "institutionalize decadence" and "intentionally
> destroy morals" with a delayed cadence or a
> chromatic melody is beyond my comprehension.
Sorry. But you could read Wagner. That just
might help your comprehension.
 
> If anything, Wagner's music still utilizes triadic
> harmony, a distinct holdover of the tonal system
> that had been developing since the late middle Ages.
> Schoenberg's music does not.
Half-wrong on both counts. Some of Wagner´s music
is triadic, some not. Same with Schoenberg. And
it´s good that you bring up Hindemith, because
that´s part of the same analogy - that "normal"
harmony had run its course, and that the system
needed to be reinvented to prevent itself from
falling into cliches. It´s no coincidence
that both Hindemith AND Schoenberg wrote treatises
on harmony (!). Wagner couldn´t have cared less.
He  was a leitmotif man.

 Perhaps you find this
> "democratic." Hindemith, in his compositional
> method, argued for the preeminence of the triad
> based upon the natural intervals in the overtone
> theory. While I do not agree with everything
> Hindemith believes in--and wish I were more familiar
> with his methodology--it would seem foolish to deny
> the natural order of the harmonic or overtone
> series.
Not foolish at all, just a different taste.
Please recall the difference between tempered
and pure tuning, and you´ll realize just where
such an argument could disagreeably drag you.

 Schoenberg did this by discrediting the
> organization of melody along tonal, modal, or
> triad-harmonic lines.
DISCREDITING! Where? Quote chapter and verse,
please, or take it back! Choosing a different
direction for himself in NO way discredits harmony.
Does writing "Survivor from Warsaw" discredit
Strauß? No way...
 
> This is far more disturbing and disrupting than what
> Wagner did.
Matter of taste. But, I believe, you´ve lost the
point. Wagner´s taste - including his anti-Semitism -
is inextricably bound with his music. Yes, his music,
not merely his text!
 
> Please cite SPECIFIC instances how Wagner's MUSIC
> did all this. 
did all WHAT, pray  tell? And what´s the benefit
from separating the man´s text from his words?
Shall we judge Mein Kampf purely on artistic merits,
and ignore the political reality based inside?
Ah, but you could say that Mein Kampf was clearly
innocent, written before the author could have
possibly known that a world war was coming. Right?
No. Same language. Same country. Same land (Bavaria),
a mere two hours away (Munich and Bayreuth in both
cases!)
How dare you ignore what´s so obvious?

I certainly would understand if his
> dramatic themes were overtly anti-Semitic, how he
> could poison the German population's minds. But,
> again, it is unfathomable to me how such gorgeous 
> music--yes, gorgeous--could actually be responsible
> for the Holocaust.
responsible in which sense? Morally? Absolutely,
though not solely. Legally? No.
But you should be better read in German
anti-Semitism before you ignore the signs.
By the way, what do you THINK evil looks like?
Most of the world seems to think that Saddam
Hussein is less of a danger than George Bush.
Leveling the playing field - removing the morals -
makes ignoring a problem so much easier, hm?
 
> Charles Manson scrawled HELTER SKELTER on the walls
> of his murder victims' home. Then did Paul McCartney
> kill Sharon Tate? We can seek to purge all
> "dangerous," "aggressive," or "sensuous" sounds from
> our music, but, in the end the twisted people will
> still find evil in it.
 Better still, did Jodie Foster shoot Ronald
Reagan? But we´re not talking about individual
sins here, chap. We´re talking about 50 million
dead.

> I agree heatliy with Albert Combrink. If I were to
> morally judge artists, I'd have to kick my Woody
> Allen habit. Something I'll never do.
A valid point would be WHOSE morals. For some,
Woooooody is over the line, but he doesn´t seem
to think so. Personal choice. In Waaaaagner´s case,
genocide is clearly over the line for you- isn´t it?
 
> Eliott Kahn#
Alex Jacobowitz 

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