here we go again....

[Judith R Cohen <judithc...>]

> some 
> Orthodox rabbis might be there.  No, they could not possibly have a 
> woman sing at this event. 

I still am utterly mystified about why the Orthodox men, rabbis or
otherwise, who feel they can't listen to a women's voice, can't just
stay away from the event, mind their own business, and let everyone else
make their own decisions. I was brought up to see Judaism as full of
adult choices and one's own concscience.

Dan:
> it's Jewish law (a law that is offensive and
> un-necessary), so you need to give it a little more respect than that.

huh? if it's offensive and un-necessary why does it need respect? 
Anyway it isn't "law", as far as I understand; that lies in how it's
interpreted.

> a more constructive approach then being dismissive.

in this case, being dismissive is the most constructive approach I can
imagine. Being reasonable sure hasn't worked.

Silvia:
> ... frummer than thou minority intimidating everyone
> else. Everytime I encounter it -- and its equally insidious form in the
> guises of organizations afraid to offend -- I want to throw up.
> 
> 
> And as a WORKMEN'S CIRCLE shule  alumna, I find it pusillanimous of your
> orchestra to capitulate. The WC is supposed to represent social justice,
> among other ideals, and this is a flat-out betrayal of that ideal.  Shame!
>

Way to go Sylvia! (and what a thoroughly appropriate word,
pusillanimous)

Eliezer:
>  the ONLY way these things can be changed in the real world is if someone
> sets some new precedents.

Hurray!!!

Lorele:
> we should put our differences aside in solidarity for the good we were
> doing for Israel.

Quite. So the orthodox men should either stay away and let everyone else
do as they see fit, or put aside their differences and come! WHy should
putting away our differences mean women should simply capitulate?!
Typical.

Avi:
> many people
> still view it as an integral part of halacha, whether
> or not you approve of it.

FIne. So , let them stay away. 

> therefore a
> concession must be made to ensure that no one will
> feel uncomfortable.

Yup. A simple concession. Keep the doors open. Those who want in, stay
in. Those who want out, stay out. 

I really think that's the issue, not whether a woman's singing voice is
somehow, bizarrely, offensive. It's why those who believe that don't
simply avoid the voice in question instead of banning it from
others'purview. Once, when I was giving a song workshop for a Sephardic
youth gorup retreat, the rabbi came up and politely told me he was sure
I would do a great job, but that he personally felt he couldn't listen,
wished me the best of luck, and quietly went and did something else for
the hour. And we had a pleasant talk later on. A couple of the older
male teens did the same. I certainly didn't find THAT offensive in the
least.

Silvia:
> Respect doesn't necessarily mean compliance --
> it means allowing for the possibility that not everyone agrees with you.

(nice to hear my own voice echoed in the wilderness! :)  )

Alan:

> The answer seems obvious.  PUBLICITY regarding who is performing, including 
> the vocalist of course.  
Tell that to the Toronto Spehardic Kehillah which refused to allow Holy
Blossom Temple to POST a notice about my and my daughter's concert of
Sephardic songs, because men might feel offended by the ANNOUNCEMENT,
regardless of whether their "womenfolk"might have liked to know about
it.

Dan:
> The point of Kol Isha is not about offending a man, it is about 'arousal'
> apparently as a man, I can't listen to you sing in case I get aroused and
> as we know, Men have no self control!
> 
Again, again and again - SO STAY AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T TELL EVERYONE
ELSE WHAT TO DO! You have no control so you're the ones to be the
spiritual leaders and lead services and the rest is women's problem?
Terrific.

>  womans voice does not have the same effect now on men as it may have had
> when the gemora was written.

Heaven's! have women''s voices and men's arousal levels changed THAT
much?

Carol:
> This practice also takes opportunities to work at earning one's living away 
> from for female
> vocalists and puts them into the hands of (sometimes less-qualified) male
> singers.
> 

You mean like the time the synagogue cancelled my already announced
concert of Sephardic women's somngs to open an evening of Sephardic
architecture from old SPain, and brought in a young Israeli cantor who
couldn't even pronounce Judeo-Spanish and was introduced as an ëxpert"?
I deliberatley showed up at the evening, and everyone had been told by
the sisterhood that I HAD CANCELLED. I made sur ethey knew. And went to
talk to the rabbi, who refused to see me.

As Sylvia said, respect is a two-way street.

Glad you brought it up, Lorele, can't be protested too often. Judith

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