RE: here we go again....

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in the past.

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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
[mailto:owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org]On Behalf Of avi finegold
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:41 AM
To: World music from a Jewish slant
Subject: Re: here we go again....




ok
your central point seems to be twofold, one that
orthodox people who have a problem with these concerts
should just stay away. i could not agree with you
more. like i mentioned above i have always the seen
the reponsability to fall on the male not to attend an
event rather than a woman to not perform. it seemed
from lori's story that the issue at hand was that they
invited several orthodox rabbis to attend and this
made the situation a bit stickier (it wouldnt be fair
to invite someone to an event that they fundamentally
cannot participate in). secondly, you beleive that
orthodoxy should be more accepting of non orthodox
viewpoints and be more accomodating to the work of
women, as int he case of the rabbis who told you not
to feel offended by his absence at your predentation.
again i dont think i could agree more. there are
plenty of closed minded people int he orthodox
community who only wish they could impose their beleif
system on the whole world. but that doesnt
neccessarily represent the true wishes of orthodox
judaism. however if you are looking for understanding
you cannot dissmiss something that an orthodox jew
does as being hopelessly backwards and outdated, you
have to be able to accept that this is what THEY do,
not what YOU do.



avi


--- Judith R Cohen <judithc (at) YorkU(dot)CA> wrote:
> > some
> > Orthodox rabbis might be there.  No, they could
> not possibly have a
> > woman sing at this event.
>
> I still am utterly mystified about why the Orthodox
> men, rabbis or
> otherwise, who feel they can't listen to a women's
> voice, can't just
> stay away from the event, mind their own business,
> and let everyone else
> make their own decisions. I was brought up to see
> Judaism as full of
> adult choices and one's own concscience.
>
> Dan:
> > it's Jewish law (a law that is offensive and
> > un-necessary), so you need to give it a little
> more respect than that.
>
> huh? if it's offensive and un-necessary why does it
> need respect?
> Anyway it isn't "law", as far as I understand; that
> lies in how it's
> interpreted.
>
> > a more constructive approach then being
> dismissive.
>
> in this case, being dismissive is the most
> constructive approach I can
> imagine. Being reasonable sure hasn't worked.
>
> Silvia:
> > ... frummer than thou minority intimidating
> everyone
> > else. Everytime I encounter it -- and its equally
> insidious form in the
> > guises of organizations afraid to offend -- I want
> to throw up.
> >
> >
> > And as a WORKMEN'S CIRCLE shule  alumna, I find it
> pusillanimous of your
> > orchestra to capitulate. The WC is supposed to
> represent social justice,
> > among other ideals, and this is a flat-out
> betrayal of that ideal.  Shame!
> >
>
> Way to go Sylvia! (and what a thoroughly appropriate
> word,
> pusillanimous)
>
> Eliezer:
> >  the ONLY way these things can be changed in the
> real world is if someone
> > sets some new precedents.
>
> Hurray!!!
>
> Lorele:
> > we should put our differences aside in solidarity
> for the good we were
> > doing for Israel.
>
> Quite. So the orthodox men should either stay away
> and let everyone else
> do as they see fit, or put aside their differences
> and come! WHy should
> putting away our differences mean women should
> simply capitulate?!
> Typical.
>
> Avi:
> > many people
> > still view it as an integral part of halacha,
> whether
> > or not you approve of it.
>
> FIne. So , let them stay away.
>
> > therefore a
> > concession must be made to ensure that no one will
> > feel uncomfortable.
>
> Yup. A simple concession. Keep the doors open. Those
> who want in, stay
> in. Those who want out, stay out.
>
> I really think that's the issue, not whether a
> woman's singing voice is
> somehow, bizarrely, offensive. It's why those who
> believe that don't
> simply avoid the voice in question instead of
> banning it from
> others'purview. Once, when I was giving a song
> workshop for a Sephardic
> youth gorup retreat, the rabbi came up and politely
> told me he was sure
> I would do a great job, but that he personally felt
> he couldn't listen,
> wished me the best of luck, and quietly went and did
> something else for
> the hour. And we had a pleasant talk later on. A
> couple of the older
> male teens did the same. I certainly didn't find
> THAT offensive in the
> least.
>
> Silvia:
> > Respect doesn't necessarily mean compliance --
> > it means allowing for the possibility that not
> everyone agrees with you.
>
> (nice to hear my own voice echoed in the wilderness!
> :)  )
>
> Alan:
>
> > The answer seems obvious.  PUBLICITY regarding who
> is performing, including the vocalist of course.
> Tell that to the Toronto Spehardic Kehillah which
> refused to allow Holy
> Blossom Temple to POST a notice about my and my
> daughter's concert of
> Sephardic songs, because men might feel offended by
> the ANNOUNCEMENT,
> regardless of whether their "womenfolk"might have
> liked to know about
> it.
>
> Dan:
> > The point of Kol Isha is not about offending a
> man, it is about 'arousal'
> > apparently as a man, I can't listen to you sing in
> case I get aroused and
> > as we know, Men have no self control!
> >
> Again, again and again - SO STAY AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> DON'T TELL EVERYONE
> ELSE WHAT TO DO! You have no control so you're the
> ones to be the
> spiritual leaders and lead services and the rest is
> women's problem?
> Terrific.
>
> >  womans voice does not have the same effect now on
> men as it may have had
> > when the gemora was written.
>
> Heaven's! have women''s voices and men's arousal
> levels changed THAT
> much?
>
> Carol:
> > This practice also takes opportunities to work at
> earning one's living away from for female
> > vocalists and puts them into the hands of
> (sometimes less-qualified) male
> > singers.
> >
>
> You mean like the time the synagogue cancelled my
> already announced
> concert of Sephardic women's somngs to open an
> evening of Sephardic
> architecture from old SPain, and brought in a young
> Israeli cantor who
> couldn't even pronounce Judeo-Spanish and was
> introduced as an kxpert"?
> I deliberatley showed up at the evening, and
> everyone had been told by
> the sisterhood that I HAD CANCELLED. I made sur
> ethey knew. And went to
> talk to the rabbi, who refused to see me.
>
> As Sylvia said, respect is a two-way street.
>
> Glad you brought it up, Lorele, can't be protested
> too often. Judith
>
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