Re: Kol Ishah again

[Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan...>]

TROMBAEDU (at) aol(dot)com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/9/00 5:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org writes:
>
> << Here's the problem I have with this.  If I understand correctly, there is
> nothing
>  in the Tanach that prohibits men from hearing women sing during specific
> prayers
>  or any other time.  At some point in history, some man was distracted by a
> woman's>>
>
> You are correct. But Halacha is not determined strictly by what is in the
> Written Law.

I understand that.

>
> <<voice and decided to make it a law to not hear it.  It is always a goal in
> prayer
>  that one's kavanah be centered wholly on the prayer, but so many things might
>  distract any person.  Maybe this man had a personal problem, but that was way
>  before Freud, so he had an alternate, testosterone-empowered way of dealing
> with
>  it - rub it out.>>
>
> There is nothing in the oral law to suggest that such an incident occurred

Forgive me, but I was remembering a previous posting, and positing possibility.

>
>  << From my admittedly incomplete studies, I don't believe this was
>  an original intention of our maker.  The laws of Judaism, while enlightened
> as to
>  Humanity, can be repressive to women and this, again IMHO, was a male
>  interpretation of the divine intention.>>
>
> Perhaps oppressive. But it is divine intention to follow the rulings of the
> Rabbis of the Oral Tradition.

Yes, AND THEY WERE MALES!  I surely do not wish to offend anyone, but it seems 
TO
ME that many of the Orthodox ways of dealing with men's natural attraction for
women is to punish the woman--make her sit separately, shave her head and wear a
wig, and so on.  I realize that women who do so believe that they are choosing
this, but when one grows up with things always having been a certain way, it is
hard to break out of that point of view, just as girls who grow up with sexual
abuse believe, often, that this is the way the rest of the world is treated.  
This
past summer, I saw at a park during a ninety-plus degree day, 2 youngish 
Orthodox
married men wearing kipot, tsitsit, shorts and sandals while their young wives
followed behind, covered from head to toe, looking quite hot and exhausted.  You
tell me that is fair.

> That is a fundamental principle of Judaism.
> When the more recent movements within Judaism chose to de-emphasize the Oral
> component of Tradition, as represented by the Talmud and its commentaries,
> the Orthodox Rabbinate and laity chose to maintain its sacred status. Your
> opinion is only valid if those with whom you are dealing agree that they can
> throw out or disregard 2000 years of sanctity of the Oral Law.

Okay, when did that law come into being.  Give me a time or an era.

>
>
>
> <<  We are imperfect and have not represented
>  perfection perfectly. >>
>
> Agreed. One of the tragedies of the Jewish condition is that due to our
> inability to overcome the faults which led to the destruction of the 2nd
> Temple and the institutions of Jewish self rule, the institutions such as
> Sanhedrin which could deal with these issues do not exist.
>
> << It is up to humanity to strive for continual approximation
>  of this perfection.  Mistakes should be corrected; apologies and retribution
> made
>  to those wronged.  That is the Jewish way. >>

>
> Retribution? Please! No one owes anybody anything because you cant sing for
> Orthodox audiences.

You misread me.  I was only saying mistakes should be corrected; apologies and
retribution
made to those people who have been wronged in any way.  Is that not the Jewish
way?

> Perhaps it is you who should be sensitive to the
> sensibilities of a community which courageously holds to religious principles
> despite the temptations of the times and our new found freedom not to do so.

Perhaps it is you who should stop attacking when not being attacked.  What are 
you
bristling at?  I did not attack you.  I am merely stating my opinion.

>
> Some of those religious principles are uncomfortable at best. Don't compound
> their struggle by delegitimizing their adherence to Halacha, which some of us
> actually believe has Kedusha, The Jewish Way?

Why did G-d give me a beautiful voice to sing with?  I use it.  You are speaking
in a sarcastic arrogant manner which is not becoming.  I am not picking a fight.

> Adherence to Halacha is the
> Jewish way. You have a different way to do that? So be it, but don't deride
> those who do it according to an unbroken chain of tradition which has
> survived every up and down of the Jewish People.

I am not deriding people who adhere to their beliefs, only the *origin* of this
particular one.  Men are fallible.  HaShem is not, although, you can argue a 
point
with HaShem and get results and a change of opinion or outcome.  It seems to me
that HaShem has been much more flexible than some humans.

I am not a confrontational person.  I have always been a peacemaker, not a
fighter, which I believe may be an outgrowth of Jewish expectations of my 
gender.
It has been very difficult for me to write this reply, but I try to reply with
thought and not just an emotional response.

Lorele

>
>
> Good Shabbos,
>

>
> Jordan
>

---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+