Re: Music and "politics"

[Alex J. Lubet <lubet001...>]

This thread has actually become one of the most interesting ones I've seen on 
this list in a long time and its highly civilized at this point.  Perhaps the 
answer is to remove people from the list who are incapable of civilized 
discourse.  These people appear from time to time and not necessarily in 
discussions related to politics.

Ari Davidow wrote:

> Shira, Alex,
>
> I could not agree more as to the entanglement of politics and music, or 
> politics and all forms of human life and expression. I, myself, am often 
> accused of not seeing life through any filter other than politics.
>
> The problem, as I have experienced it, is that it is extraordinarily 
> difficult to have a diverse, open group that can discuss _anything_ in a 
> loose, e-mail environment. In the particular incident that sparked my ire 
> last week, a list member posted an interesting and relevant article about 
> antisemitic responses to a Yiddish radio show on NPR. The article was very 
> much of interest to the list. The posting was accompanied by the sort of 
> statement that pushes a lot of people's "Israel" buttons (and indeed, before 
> I had a chance to response publicly or privately, the first of those whose 
> buttons were pushed had e-mailed me angrily). If such an article can't even 
> be posted by an interested individual who cannot refrain from first poisoning 
> the well of conversation, where would the discussion have gone from there? 
> How many (I counted one) of those who responded to my angry note about 
> inappropriate posting read the specific reason (the political cliche that the 
> poster averred was confirme
> d by the article) for my anger?
>
> I don't have a reasonable solution that lets us discuss without limits. I'm 
> open to looking at lists that anyone feels have solved this problem, to 
> better understand what they do that builds the trust, and builds the ability 
> such that people continue to post with respect, especially at a time when 
> emotions are (and should be) so high.
>
> To be clear, and to summarize, the reasons the list is strictly limited to 
> discussion of Jewish music have everything to do with what is sustainable and 
> possible. Aristotle has nothing to do with it.
>
> In the meantime, limits on this list are set only when things repeatedly get 
> out of hand. In this case, letting conversation, even to the point of posting 
> announcements about events, stray into political territory has seldom failed 
> to end in a flame war. If we must have flame wars (as much as I'd like to 
> think that we can somehow avoid them), at the very least, they should be 
> about Jewish-music.
>
> Like many people on this list, I also spend considerable time each day in 
> online spaces (in my case, that is primarily the WELL) where political 
> discussion about Jewish life and Israel is ongoing. I'd like to encourage 
> diversity. Just as this list tries to be a place where one might encounter 
> the widest possible diversity of thought, question, and reflection about 
> Jewish music, there are other things worth discussing, as well, and good 
> places to encounter them. Private e-mail is also useful.
>
> (I have a dream of hosting a web-based space that makes it easier to engage 
> and disengage, and would make greater diversity of discussion possible, but 
> find me the time and the budget ;-).)
>
> ari
>
> At 08:58 PM 4/26/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Well put, Shira.  In that context, we should be asking of those who
> >would draw a line, where would they draw it?  Where I live
> >(professionally, that is) discussions of the intersection of music and
> >politics are pretty much assumed.
> >
> >
> >
> >Susan Lerner wrote:
> >
> >>  I am not yet ready to respond to the incredible cri de couer we have
> >> received from Francesco, it requires some thinking time and careful
> >> writing, but I do want to respond to the general discussion about
> >> whether there should be a discussion.
> >>
> >> I am somewhat surprised by the strain of "New Criticism" or
> >> neo-aristotelian approach which is being espoused on this list.  You
> >> know, the approach which says it is only the work which comes down to
> >> us so you look only at the work, not at its context.  That theory is
> >> at least 50 years old and certainly not widely current.
> >>
> >> How interesting that no one raised the objection that we were
> >> discussing politics and not Jewish music during the extensive postings
> >> (somewhere around 40 in 3-4 days) in late February and early
> >> March,2000 on Germans and klezmer.  From my point of view, it was one
> >> of the most interesting and in-depth discussions during the 3 or 4
> >> years I've been on this list.  I've still got the postings in a
> >> separate folder in my email program.
> >>
> >> The idea that we can divorce the social and political from the
> >> musical, particularly in the context of discussing what is,
> >> essentially an ethnically and culturally-derived  (as opposed to
> >> academically or classically/aesthetically-derived ) music is truly
> >> perplexing to me.  Religious influences okay, social/political not?
> >> Where does that leave secularists like me?  Forming a splinter list?
> >> How much thinner and poorer the discussion and the sharing of ideas,
> >> if that is so.  Although I have limited interest in liturgical music,
> >> I have nonetheless learned interesting things from postings relating
> >> to liturgical music.
> >>
> >> But more pertinently, is discussing the effect that Stalinist
> >> restrictions had on Prokofiev's or Shostakovitch's compositions not
> >> discussing the music? What about the raging debate in the last 5-10
> >> years on just that point in the classical music world? Can we
> >> seriously divorce the political from the musical in discussing Brahms'
> >> German Requiem? What about Beethoven's Fidelio? Do we avoid
> >> discussions of music relating to or coming out of the Holocaust
> >> because it is generally discussed in the context of social and
> >> political factors? Or is only a discussion of harmonic structure
> >> really "about" the music?  Gee, I guess my bias is pretty clear...
> >>
> >> I hope that we on the list are not restricted to perfectly valid but
> >> essentially limited inquiries like whether a particular composer of a
> >> particular piece on a recording is or isn't Jewish,  or debating
> >> whether a particular melody found in a specific classical composition
> >> is or is not derived from a Jewish melody.  All perfectly valid
> >> inquiries, and I would not have them stop in any way, but perhaps not
> >> of burning interest to the entire list.  And certainly only a part,
> >> not the totality, of "Jewish music."
> >>
> >> There are lots of threads on this list that don't interest me.  I
> >> don't read them. I delete them.  I don't even complain when they
> >> repeatedly include copies of an entire day's digest, back and forth
> >> (well, maybe once, but it had no effect :-) ).  I most assuredly do
> >> not try to condemn the entire discourse.
> >>
> >> I don't believe that any of the exchanges on the Yiddish Radio Project
> >> or Francesco's posting have been inflammatory, disrespectful or
> >> "off-topic" in the sense of wholly unrelated to Jewish music and
> >> concerned only with politics.  If I have over-stated my case in this
> >> message, it is my "New Yorker" intensity and not any intent to be
> >> personal or offensive.  I just argue hard (where do we think that
> >> comes from ;-) )?
> >>
> >> Those who are not interested in discussions of the political and
> >> social factors which influence the music which we all love, listen to,
> >> perform or promote in some manner or another should exercise that most
> >> exquisite and powerful commentary: don't pay any attention.  We're all
> >> pretty good about including a topic on our postings.
> >>
> >> As that great Jewish chanteuse sang: "Don't rain on my parade!"
> >>
> >> Shira Lerner
> >> Yiddishkayt LA
> >
> >--
> >Alex Lubet, Ph. D.
> >Morse Alumni Distinguished Teaching Professor of Music
> >Adjunct Professor of American and Jewish Studies
> >University of Minnesota
> >2106 4th St. S
> >Minneapolis, MN 55455
> >612 624-7840 612 624-8001 (fax)
>
> Ari Davidow
> ari (at) ivritype(dot)com
> list owner, jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> the klezmer shack: http://www.klezmershack.com/
>


--
Alex Lubet, Ph. D.
Morse Alumni Distinguished Teaching Professor of Music
Adjunct Professor of American and Jewish Studies
University of Minnesota
2106 4th St. S
Minneapolis, MN 55455
612 624-7840 612 624-8001 (fax)


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