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>The issue of women's participation in Judaism is--judging from the vitriol--obviously a hot button issue. It's obvious that something should be done to empower women in a fair and equitable fashion. But, as I've continually said, what makes Orthodox Judaism appealing to some of us--myself included--is the desire not to throw everything traditional away and jump on the first ideological bandwagon. That is part of its charm and that is why some of us treasure it
In response: Yes, Elliot, and that is why I told the story about my Grandfather, who being a Litvaker Chasid, was nothing if not a Traditionalist. The realities are that some men continue to use Orthodoxy as a refuge for woman-hating. I did not say all men do. What I am tired of is the crummy behavior of some of the men on this list who think it is Okay to act chazzerish as long as they can cite something from the Talmud to back it up. A truly religious and spiritual man would have no desire to do this. And my remarks were definitely leavened with humor. That's Okay now that Pesach is over isn't it?My aim is life is that all people be treated well...all people.
Can you understand why some women and men might have lost their enthusiasm for Orthodoxy given some of the Male attitudes that it fosters????
And by theway... I grew up around some Jewish
women who were just as chauvinistic in their attitudes toward women...this is not a sole Male domain. But would you admit that many Men who are Traditionalist use this as an excuse to view Women in antiquated and hurtful ways????
Personally, I'll let My Creator decide what a woman or a man is capable of. It's my feeling that's the way to go. Read my posting again. I'm very lucky that I grew up around spiritual and religious Orthodox men who felt and believed that their female children should be respected and could go the limit on anything that they could imagine.
I would certainly fight for your right to express yourself, anytime and anywhere. However, forgive me if I cannot, via personal experiences expect an Orthodox Jewish Male or a Traditional Jewish Male to do the same for me.
As my Zayde Moe, the Chazzan would say: "I'm from Missouri, show me." Of course it sounds better with a Litvaker accent.
All the Best,
Trudi the G
> >I believe many of the reasons it seems so hard to initiate a meaningful dialogue on the role of women in Orthodox Judaism--Halacha aside--are usually tied up with the changing roles of men and women in our current society. Many of us do not want to see traditional roles challenged and discarded quite so quickly. It is not as simple as saying that men want to deny a woman who "wants what is rightfully hers," but, rather, we all should be trying to get a handle on the natures of men and women, how they differ or are similar, and what we want/expect from worship and our religious and cultural institutions.
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