Re: Kol ishah

[Eliezer Kaplan <zelwel...>]

> ervah (sexual abomination?)

No- just nudity.

> Get the play
> on words "arev" (beautiful) to "ervah" (sexual abomination)?

Isn't arev with a vet and ervah with a vav? Also, during the Hazan's prelude
to RH/ YK mussaf doesn't he ask for his voice to be Me'urav bada'at im
habriyot (with a vet)- containing/ including knowledge of life? I guess the
(vet) words arev, eruv, and erev are all related, but personally I don't
know enough to explicitly draw the connection.
                            EK


----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Schorsch <jonjack (at) uclink4(dot)berkeley(dot)edu>
To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kol ishah


> Sorry for the delayed response, I was busy celebrating sukkot.  I will
give
> the citations, but be forewarned that, as in all rabbinic texts, from all
> periods, even what seems simple ain't.
>
> In two places the Talmud treats what is being called on this list "kol
> isha": Berakhot 24a and Kiddushin 70a.  Just to give a flavor, the former
> discussion opens by discussing the typically talmudic limit case of a
> couple in bed together naked; should they turn their heads the other way
to
> say the she'ma or not?  What about if a man's children are in bed with
him,
> all naked, can he say she'ma?  (Remember, entire families used to sleep in
> one bed, so this isn't as obscurantist as it seems.)  A talit is needed to
> separate them, in one opinion; yes, it is permitted to say she'ma thus, if
> they can't see one another's nakedness, says Rav Shmuel.  However, the
> "conversation" continues, if one can see a tefah (handsbreadth) of a
> woman's body (even one's wife) it is an ervah (sexual abomination?) and
one
> cannot say she'ma faced with this (pun intended).  R. Shmu'el says in
> addition, "the voice of a woman is an ervah," which is understood by
> commentators to mean that a woman's voice SINGING is an ervah.  Shmu'el
> cites Song of Songs 2:14, "for your voice is beautiful (arev) and your
> looks pleasing"  (These are all my quicky, bad translations.)  Get the
play
> on words "arev" (beautiful) to "ervah" (sexual abomination)?  Etc., etc.,
> go look it up yourself...
>
> The issue can be traced in the writings (ad. loc., probably) of Tosafot
> Rabbi Yehudah haHasid and Rabenu Asher.  See also Rambam, Laws of
Forbidden
> Relations (Isurei Bi'ah) 21:2.  There is debate about whether the talmudic
> formulations are meant merely as a general warning about tsniyut (modesty)
> or that a man CANNOT say she'ma exposed to such an ervah (nakedness or a
> woman's singing voice), etc., etc.
>
> The issue can also be found in the Shulkhan Arukh (16th century), in
> section Orakh Hayyim, 75:3.  Here, it is understood to forbid female
voices
> in a synagogue choir.  But be wary: a woman, even naked, can bless and
pray
> at a yeshivah, since the mehitse (separation between women's and men's
> section) keeps her nakedness from being seen... (Ibid., 74:4 and 206:3).
>
> Happy trails!  Mo'adim le-simha!
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> At 08:40 PM 9/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Jonathan,
> >
> >Can you direct us to the rabbinic sources where can we read about the
> >development of the principles concerning Kol Ishah?
> >
> >Bob
>
>
>
>
>

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